Episode 6.09: We talk with Rafael about Change (dot, dot, dot)

Change is easy to celebrate when it’s an abstract idea. It gets real when it asks us to shift our routines, our relationships, and the way we lead. We start with a lighter spark, Dot Day, and the message behind “The Dot” by Peter H Reynolds: begin with one small mark and see what becomes possible when you focus on process over product. That tiny dot turns into a bigger question for learning and life: what happens when we give ourselves permission to start before we feel ready? 

From there, we dig into change in math education and within teams. We talk about authentic collaboration, why resistance to change is normal, and how “no resistance” can actually mean missing voices or unspoken concerns. We connect these ideas to the classroom, especially the first days of school, when students are carrying last year’s experiences, relationships, and fears into a new space. Building a culture where students talk, take risks, and think together doesn’t happen by accident, it happens by design. 

Subscribe for more conversations on teaching, learning, and change, then share this episode with a colleague and leave a review so more educators can find us. What change are you trying to lead right now?

The More Math for More People Podcast is produced by CPM Educational Program.
Learn more at CPM.org
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Email: cpmpodcast@cpm.org

Transcript

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Dot Day And Creative Courage

Joel 0:17

Listening to the More Math for More People podcast, an outreach of CPM Educational Program. Boom

Misty 0:31

Joel,

Joel 0:33

Yes

Misty 0:33

is September 15th.

Joel 0:35

It is September 15th.

Misty 0:37

very glorious day. What is the national day we're celebrating today?

Joel 0:41

Today is Dot Day

Misty 0:43

Dot Day?

Joel 0:45

Yes.

Misty 0:46

wow. Uh, the dot has many contexts. Which context of dot are we celebrating?

Joel 0:54

Well, I kind of, this one, I really like

Misty 0:57

Oh, you like all of them, but I mean, some of them are, some of them are

Joel 1:00

That's true.

Misty 1:01

but you do like all of them

Joel 1:04

I think I like this one the most 'cause it inspires creativity and self-expression. So the idea is there's a book called The Dot, and this, so this day it just encourages everybody to make their mark. Explore your artistic potential by you start with a dot and see where it goes from there.

Misty 1:24

Oh, interesting.

Joel 1:26

Yeah.

Misty 1:27

So is it, is it geared toward visual arts then? Like starting with an actual dot on a piece of paper?

Joel 1:35

Yep.

Misty 1:35

Okay. I like

Joel 1:36

Yeah.

Misty 1:37

Interesting.

Joel 1:38

Yeah.

Misty 1:39

this day.

Joel 1:40

I do too.

Misty 1:41

like that idea as I just see where it goes

Joel 1:45

Peter, Peter Reynolds is the author of the book The Dot

Misty 1:48

Is that what the book was about? Like this whole process of self-exploration or whatever expression

Joel 1:55

Yeah.

Misty 1:55

exploration? Hmm.

Joel 1:57

It begins with a dot

Misty 1:58

Mm-hmm. I like it. I like it because I do believe that there are many purposes for art, and one is self-expression. One is like clearly a message, a, you know, w- there is aesthetic and beauty expression of art, and one is just a thing to do. It's just, it's a process. It's not even about what you're creating, it's the creating of it that is the thing, right? And I struggle with that one actually, 'cause I always want to be making a thing. What if it's not pretty when I'm done? What if it doesn't look cool?

Joel 2:29

Latvia. Oh, yeah

Misty 2:30

whatever. Like there's some part about the product-driven part of art that is, uh, overemphasized in my own brain, has been overemphasized to me perhaps from, you know, throughout childhood and so on. Like if it wa- you weren't drawing a good drawing, why were you drawing it, you know? And I, and I think that has unfortunately stymied many of my artistic pursuits.

Joel 2:52

Hmm. I agree. Art takes a lot of form. Like I think of, say, photography with your phone, that you- that's a process to me. Like, you can play around and you can change things or, or maybe you're just, um, s- getting a point in a day sort of a

Misty 3:10

Yeah. Well, I think it's interesting that, like, the whole idea of like, of taking photos

Joel 3:17

Mm-hmm

Misty 3:17

right? Like, that's one example where different devices, right? When we used to like pick, take a picture and it had to be on film, and you had to develop the film before you could even see it. Now you can take all kinds of pictures. I had a, I had a boyfriend in college that he was constantly... He loved taking pictures, but then he was always like developing pictures, and he would just say like, "Well, in this one, what I was trying to do was..."

Joel 3:40

Mm-hmm.

Misty 3:42

And then, and then, you know, it was this whole piece around like, that's not actually how it came out. But now, I, I mean, I imagine he still takes pictures and has a great time with it.

Joel 3:51

Which is, which is art in itself if it doesn't even come out the way you expect it to come out.

Misty 3:56

Exactly. Exactly.

Joel 3:58

Yeah

Misty 3:59

So so this dry making a dot and then creating something. I mean, I was gonna say, I was gonna say drawing something, but it doesn't even have to be drawing something. It could be who knows what

Joel 4:11

Well, the, the book, it, I, I'm reading a little bit of a synopsis here, just encourages... So there's a girl who begins a journey of self-discovery, and the teacher challenges her to make her mark. And so start with that dot and go from there and make your mark.

Misty 4:27

Interesting.

Joel 4:28

Yeah.

Misty 4:29

So what are you gonna do today then?

Joel 4:32

Well, some suggested ideas. I could read the book "The Dot."

Misty 4:36

Mm-hmm.

Joel 4:38

I could donate some art supplies to a school. I could paint a picture or write a poem.

Misty 4:44

Hmm, okay

Joel 4:46

It seems pre-ki- it seems like for something that's inspiring creativity, this is a very limited list. That's stifling a little creativity.

Misty 4:56

Well, as little product-oriented with the last one there, just to be

Joel 4:59

yeah.

Misty 5:00

Mm-hmm.

Joel 5:01

So I think that today I'm just gonna look for places to make my mark.

Misty 5:06

cool.

Joel 5:06

Yeah. How about you?

Misty 5:09

I like the idea of just, like, having a piece of paper and all my, like, pens and pencils and various things, and then just starting with a dot and then just what happens for the next set a timer or whatever, so I don't feel like I have to do it for any amount of time and, and then just be done.

Joel 5:27

I like it.

Misty 5:28

There you go.

Joel 5:29

Happy Dot Day

Misty 5:30

Happy Dot Day.

Why Change Feels Personal

Rafael 5:48

All right, so what do we really wanna talk about today?

Misty 5:51

Okay. Well, now that we've gotten the, you know, like, well, they say, you know, when you bring teams together, right, you gotta give them a time to, like, settle and chat, and I think that's just what we, what we just did, that no one will, no one will hear. They'll hear this part of like, "Oh, I wonder what we talked about?" But I'm just gonna s- I'm gonna say we mostly talked about coffee. And

Joel 6:09

T

Misty 6:10

well, I don't know. What are, what are we gonna talk about today?

Joel 6:13

What's on your mind?

Misty 6:14

your mind?

Rafael 6:16

Change is on my mind. Change, you know? And, and I mean it in the broadest way. I've, I've, you know, here at CPM, as everyone knows, we're, we're, changing. We're changing the way we work, uh, the way we interact with each other. We're thinking about collaboration that's, you know, authentic, true collaboration. And that's not a knock on anyone, it's just, it's just, a realization that changing your patterns of work, the way you think about work, is really hard,

Misty 6:49

Mm-hmm.

Rafael 6:50

And as we face that institutionally, and there's a lot of exciting stuff that's coming out of this change and the conversation around change. So I'm jazzed. Uh, and it reminds me of the change we actually bring into the classroom. I was in a conversation the other day around, uh, you know, product teams and how the workflow in a product team can, can happen or should happen, and the presenter had a parallel to the CPM classroom. And I was like, "Yes, we need to share this broadly," because it was a direct connection to the way we bring a different way of doing math to the math classroom, and I think we're really good at that change. And it's interesting to me that when it's time to change you,

Misty 7:39

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rafael 7:40

I'm good at changing others.

Misty 7:43

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm

Rafael 7:45

wait, you're asking me to change? My perspective, my leadership style, my collaborative style? So that's what I've been thinking about.

Misty 7:53

We've had a lot of conversation about this on the PL team, right? 'Cause w- we, you know, we talk about things like resistance, right? Like, when we're... And, and sometimes we meet resistance, whatever that looks like and feels like, with sites or teachers or people we're coaching, and how to work with that, right? Not against it. Like, it, like, it's like anything. The, it, it's like a non-Newtonian fluid, right? The more you push on it, the harder it gets kind of a thing,

Rafael 8:22

Mm-hmm.

Misty 8:23

right? So over that cement- I, I forget if it's, I might have that backwards. But that, that, that, the more, the, the more we try to force something, the, the more people will resist just because of the force, right? Sometimes that's a, like, we don't want to be pushed and forced into things. We want to choose to do things generally. And, and we all have a different relationship with change and what that means and what that brings up for us, right? Even if it's something we're like, "Yes, we want it to be different,"

Resistance As Useful Data

Misty 8:56

it might happen too quickly or too slowly or in a way we didn't really like it to, right? And so that brings up different emotions and feelings for us

Rafael 9:06

I, I love th- this notion of resistance because I believe in the, I guess, the counter notion so deeply. Uh, in fact, I think if you move forward and you experience no resistance to change, whether it's in the classroom, the district, at CPM, you're missing something. That's just not how humans navigate change, right? So this is great. I've heard everyone's happy about this.

Misty 9:32

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rafael 9:33

this change. You're overlooking someone, something, some point of view. And so I, uh, I'm a big fan of, of bringing groups together, uh, productively ultimately, but with different viewpoints. You come out the other end with a stronger, sh- dare I say, theory of change because you've poked at it from different perspectives. Uh, it's the opposite of groupthink. And I, and I think we're doing a nice job within the company, and I think that is one of the reasons this change feels very invigorating to me. Because on the granular level, you can have conversations that feel really difficult, right? Because you're, you feel like you're forcing change, or you feel like you're not, to your point, Misty, like you're not going fast enough. I know. I'm sorry. I wanna go faster. And then you go back to, you know, your thinking space and you're like, "I can't go faster for these reasons." And so it's that, that diversity of perspective that has to be brought to bear on change

Rethinking The First Days Of School

Joel 10:36

I, you, you just made me think right now about classrooms for a second, and to say so often at the beginning of the year, where we kind of are right now, I, I would present this, my class as, "Aren't we all excited? This is gonna be great." And instead of acknowledging, "I know you lost something from last year," could be a relationship, could be a teacher, could be an experience, or maybe it's time you're ready for that new change, but acknowledge those other viewpoints and of what you're coming with. Uh, and I think CPM does a good job of trying to promote those, you know, find, draw that out of students and things like that. But then it leads me to what you were just saying about where we're heading as a company, and now that change, it, it does feel good. The process has felt pretty good, I think, emotion-wise. So

Misty 11:31

Mm-hmm.

Rafael 11:33

And, and I, I view it, I've, I've been de- describing it as we have a map. We have a map, we have a way-finding de- device, right? Our map is the strategic plan, our implementation plan, and our, and our intellect and creativity are the way-finding, you know, device. And so we can move in a direction. And again, like we don't wanna just stumble into one direct- direction without, uh, some of that resistance. Yeah, you're, you're taking me back to the classroom, uh, as well, and I think CPM was where I first realized the, the power of that first day, first week, first month broadly. And I've applied that in every class I've taught, you know, high school all the way up to college, that in my day, my day being like ancient times, the teacher... It almost felt like teachers-- This is before I was a teacher. The, my teachers, you know, in the '70s, just to be very specific and clear. Yeah, not the

Joel 12:38

the 19s, 1970s

Misty 12:40

yes. It's exact. Mm-hmm.

Rafael 12:42

just to be doubly clear. It almost felt like the teachers had to jump right in. It, it, it almost felt like a, like almost a competitive thing. Like, "I gave homework on the first day." Uh, "I gave homework before they even arrived." Like I, I wasn't in the teachers' lounge listening to this, but it was clear to me that there was this like status in, you know, making it hard and getting people to work right away. And I don't recall ever, honestly, I'd, I'd have to think further on this, spending the time getting to know my classmates in that room, like in any way.

Misty 13:26

Mm-mm.

Rafael 13:27

Like these were strangers for the entire, whatever it was, quarter,

Joel 13:30

Yeah.

Rafael 13:32

There was no connection except maybe I'm chuckling because the only way I found to connect was to misbehave.

Misty 13:44

Oh. Mm-hmm.

Rafael 13:45

To talk, to

Misty 13:46

Sure,

Rafael 13:47

was not allowed, in case people don't remember those days or were not in those days. Like, you could

Misty 13:51

passed notes. That's what I did. I was, yeah.

Rafael 13:54

We would pass notes, but that was

Joel 13:56

that was not okay.

Rafael 13:57

you could get in trouble. So literally, w- it was a silent, uh, authoritarian space where you were expected to be creative, a critical thinker.

Joel 14:12

Yeah

Rafael 14:12

I,

Misty 14:13

Sort of. You were also expected to sort of like take in what was being told and then reproduce it, right? Like this, like, yeah, like this. Like, there was parts and times where it was... But, like, I can honestly say, like, math and, math and in some ways science class, not those spaces where that was encouraged, at least. It was much more, "Here, let me show you." Like, in my experience, I remember very much, like, "Here, let me show you how to do it. Now do it." And for me, that left me lots of time for passing notes, because I didn't need them to show me how to do it. I could be doing other things while that was happening. But yeah, it's, it was very much a... It, there was not, it was not about talk about it. It's, it's give me the answer, right? Reply to me with what I'm expecting or wanting. What's the next step? Whatever, you know. But it was not talk to your classmates and what are your ideas? What do you think we should do? Oh, no. Yeah, so different

Rafael 15:19

So, so we've come a long way,

Misty 15:21

We have.

Joel 15:22

I think, I think so.

Misty 15:23

Yeah.

Joel 15:24

From

Misty 15:26

From the 1970s. for sure.

Joel 15:29

I... It makes me think about other subjects too. Yeah, the,

Misty 15:36

Yeah. Uh-huh

Joel 15:37

like in a gym class, a lot of people might say, "I, I love gym. We get to play. We get to talk to people." We get to do that sort of thing, and get to know the people around you pretty quickly

Misty 15:52

Right.

Joel 15:54

So

Misty 15:54

It's still a s- it's still a social thing to do, right? There's, we're working together or we're competing, but that's also fun 'cause we're working together to compete.

Rafael 16:04

yes. But the- then there was room there to create a culture of competi- you know, maybe too competitive, maybe not enough. But, but the kids, the, the students were invited into a co-creative creation of the culture,

Joel 16:23

What are your strengths? What are my strengths? All that

Rafael 16:26

Yeah. And then when I extrapolate this out, that's why we had to create this, we were on our own. What were we thinking? Create the culture of the hallway, of the school dance, of the, how we played in neighborhoods and whatnot. Like, and we had no guidance. Like we were, we we didn't know what we were creating, so we just recreated, I think, like what we saw in movies. Uh, and s- and I think to some degree we're, we're there still. But I say we've come a long way because whether it's a CPM math classroom or other classrooms and other learning spaces, I believe we are teaching our teachers of the future to think differently about that. But going back to that first day, first week, first month, I mean, I remember asking kids to fill in the mathog- their mathography. What has been your experience in mathematics? And reading those right away so that I, I got a sense of like, who's in the room, and what are they bringing in from previous math experiences, right? Who are these students? Uh, and also sharing enough of, you know, that fine line between like making yourself human, but, you know, also retaining that level of, of, you know, frankly, authority, expertise. So that was always something that was, uh, that was challenging. But it wasn't like, "Don't smile till December," you know, kind of thing.

The Warm Demander Balance

Misty 17:55

think that comes over and to me that, that bridges into that idea of a warm demander, right? The, the piece of like, uh, there was a time when I, I strove to be the nicest mean teacher my kids had ever had, right? Which is, which is exactly that balance, right? Of like, "No, I'm not gonna put up with your BS at times, and also I get it, you're human, and I'm like here for you, and we can, we can talk about this stuff," right? And that's, and that's a work in progress always, right? I think I had... I mostly had to work on the nice part. 'Cause I just, I- mostly 'cause I had to like learn how, for me personally, I had to learn where and how I could like, I don't like the term give up control, but for me it was like I like things neat and tidy, and there was like, it's a, like where my sensory spaces could live with like more messiness really

Rafael 18:55

Well, as someone who knew you, not everybody knows this big reveal here on the podcast knew you as a teacher and as a rising CPM leader once upon a time, um, you conveyed that, I think, into adult world as well, warm demander. And I think that's super important because for, for kids in particular, it kind of inoculates, uh, against this temptation to expect less of your students because you're nice or because you want to accommodate. I'm not gonna say you don't, which, like of course, you know, we want that warm, warm demander, right? Not cold demander. But th- but there's a real risk in lowering the bar, and particularly for certain students, right? Like, sometimes you start realizing you're building in a, a like kind of a reverse bias and not holding kids accountable. Um, I've heard that described as the, the soft bigotry of low expectations for some kids of color particular. And, and I think that, that paradigm of warm demander helps make sure you don't do that.

Misty 20:06

Yeah.

Two Questions For Better Decisions

Misty 20:07

Well, for me, there's so much... I mean, again, teaching middle schoolers, like, my big goals was, like, helping them learn how to make decisions, right? Like, how, how are you gonna decide a thing? How are you gonna, like, how are you gonna do a thing when I'm not here,

Rafael 20:21

Exactly

Misty 20:22

and you don't know what you don't know, right? And I, a- and so, and particularly as I taught science too, it was, it was like figuring out, like, have I told you my, my two rules? So my two rules for making a decision. So, like, kids would do these science projects, and they design the project, and they figure out the experimental method, everything. Well, how am I, what's my procedure gonna be, right? And it just, I finally realized that, like, they didn't, they didn't have common sense, right? They didn't know how a thing was gonna go without trying it. And so I'd have kids who would, like, constantly be asking me every tiny little step, right? Like, "Oh, how big should I make this hole in the bucket?" And I'm like, "I don't know. How big is the thing that you need to connect it to?" Right? Like, and then I have kids who are like, "Wah!" And I'd be like, "Oh, my gosh, what just happened over here? 'Cause that is the $300 thing that we bought for you, and now it's broken," right? Like, they didn't know the difference. And so I just told them there's, like, there's two rules. Like, if you're gonna decide, am I gonna do a thing, you ask yourself two questions. The first question is, if I do this, is there a chance that anyone or any, like, will be hurt? So will something blow up? Will there be a fire? Right? There will be injuries, blood, or maiming happening, right?

Rafael 21:39

or mayhem

Misty 21:40

to middle schoolers, right? Yeah. Or it will be loud,

Joel 21:43

past that to Reel Two.

Misty 21:45

the second question, sh- if you... So the second question is, if I do this, can it be easily undone? Right? Because it covered the safety part and it covered the, "Oh no, we broke it and we can't un-break it," right? And the, if the answer to both of those questions is, like, y- in this case, yes, right? Like, it like, like it's not, this is not gonna happen and this is not gonna happen, then do it, then

Rafael 22:14

Give it. a whirl. Yeah, give it a whirl

Misty 22:15

Like, th- then, then learn from doing it, right? And that was... And they still, like, they, th- they weren't always good predictors at those two things. Like, I had to give them enough information and so on, but, like, that was, that was the two questions to ask yourself. So, like, to me there was this whole piece of, like, just helping them be more... Like, they're baby adults, right? Helping them learn to be adults, and that also meant, like, giving them parameters within which they could explore. Like, if the parameters are too tight, then one, they don't get to explore, they don't get to learn anything, and second, they're trying to get out. Right? At a certain age they're wanna, they don't want to be this tight, right? In this little circle around them. They're gonna be start banging on the walls to get out. And if I make the walls too big, then they start bouncing around trying to find them, right? They don't feel safe enough actually to try

Rafael 23:07

May I extend your story

Misty 23:08

Of

Learning Through Productive Missteps

Misty 23:09

course.

Rafael 23:09

I have? Uh, and I think it really makes the point

Misty 23:14

Mm-hmm.

Rafael 23:14

of the dangers of not allowing them some latitude. Because if they don't practice some measured risk-taking or, or common sense, right? Or logic or critical thinking. So my story is high school. This, this would be 10th graders taking chemistry. We're in a lab where the tables are circular and the sink is in the middle, but I digress. That designer was I, I raise my fist to that designer many a time. But the instructions were to p- uh, take your warming dish, I, I, forget the exact technical term, but, and put it under the flame. Okay? That, those were the words. Now I, I don't think that's very well-written, but, uh

Misty 24:00

I'm trying to even imagine what that was supposed to be saying.

Rafael 24:03

Right. So there was an avenue there, like, like you could go th- down this road, and I, uh, one of the teams calls me over, and to their credit, they were like, "This doesn't seem right." And they had taken the Bunsen burner and put it on top of the warming dish because under the flame.

Misty 24:23

Right

Rafael 24:24

but I had this moment of like, "Oh, I see exactly what you're doing here, and I'm not gonna blame you for it or make a big ruckus that you didn't do it right. This is a logical way to interpret those directions."

Misty 24:39

weren't doing a thing that didn't make sense to them.

Rafael 24:42

Right. However, the rest of the room

Misty 24:45

Right

Rafael 24:46

had figured it out. And so I think that it was a combination of, like, remembering that what is clear to me is not going to be clear to you, but giving folks, especially young people, and I would say all adults, the chances to like, "This doesn't feel right." And then next time around, you're gonna problem solve that set of directions or that experiment differently. And I think to this day, we don't give enough latitude. In fact, it's so interesting because I think we give like, like in preschool, hav- having experienced the whole K to 12 plus continuum,

Misty 25:21

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rafael 25:23

preschool's all about play and discovery, and if you've ever immersed yourself in like a recess game with preschool kids, there is some amazing stuff happening, like critical thinking, creativity. Roles are being created. If you wa- walk in, they're like, "You're gonna be the owl, and you're gonna..." And they, they have this whole narrative. And so I would argue kindergarten, first grade even, and then we start just sort of removing that. I'm speaking very generally. I know there are wonderful progressive schools, public and private, that don't do this. But we start limiting their viewpoints around what can be possible and saying, "Well, that This is the right answer. This is the wrong answer." And, and we start removing those opportunities. And, and again, bringing it back to CPM, that's what got me jazzed back in the in the 20th cen- the 1900s, uh, when I saw students given memorable problems, rich problems that they really could not solve alone. They couldn't. It, it was like they literally had to turn to each other and go like, "Oh my God, how are we gonna figure this out?" Right? So number one, like a big challenge, and then to just start see the dialogue go to a place of, of solving the problem, and often in multiple ways. So

Joel 26:47

Ma.

Misty 26:48

Ooh. Started from change, huh?

Rafael 26:52

Yeah, change is hard

Misty 26:55

Change is hard. It takes time and support

Rafael 26:58

Takes time and support. And the whole y- you, you guys must have read, uh, someone's the Moving the Cheese thing,

Misty 27:05

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rafael 27:07

and it's so at the heart of it, right? Like, it's, it's you've moved my positionality. You've moved my relationship web. Um, you've moved the ba- the, this way I've gotten really comfortable communicating, uh, or working together. And I don't like it

Misty 27:30

Mm-hmm. It's, it's uncomfortable. And, you know, if there's nothing about people, they want to be safe and comfortable. I mean, that's... We do a lot of things to be, feel safe, you know?

Rafael 27:44

Tied to autonomy, right? Like, you're not the boss of me,

Misty 27:47

Yep.

Rafael 27:48

right?

Misty 27:49

Absolutely. Especially, especially those, uh, middle schoolers and adolescents. That's,

Joel 27:55

High schoolers.

Misty 27:55

that's their whole job, is to become individuals.

Rafael 27:59

Yeah.

Joel 28:01

Um

Rafael 28:01

Again, I feel like we've come a long way. Like, we recognize that a classroom that is silent, that now raises a flag. Versus before, of course, once upon a time where

Misty 28:16

Yeah

Rafael 28:16

your classroom is too unruly. Kids are talking in there.

Misty 28:19

Mm-hmm. What's happening? What is happening here? Yeah,

Joel 28:23

it sounds like your Bunsen burner example that they're able to see that something's wrong 'cause it doesn't match the goal we're reaching. We're trying to get to this goal over here, and it's not

Rafael 28:35

And ideally, ideally not wait for the teacher to come around and say, "Yeah, this... Yeah, there's something up here." Right? Like, "Let's figure this out." you know, and then they're

Misty 28:45

And then checking in.

Rafael 28:47

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Misty 28:47

Yeah. Like there's some part like, "This doesn't seem right. Do you agree?"

Rafael 28:52

Yeah. Or God forbid, lean to the next group and go, "Hey,

Misty 28:56

That too. All right. What are you thinking? Yeah

Rafael 28:59

But I'm sure that was, like, the edge of my, my latitude there. I probably didn't allow them to talk to each other across groups. I'm, I'm willing to bet on that one

Misty 29:11

My gosh. Well, as always, Raphael, a really fantastic conversation. Yeah. Well, I

Rafael 29:17

I'm always surprised

Misty 29:18

mean, I, I wish we had had these conversations every week, but, you know, we have, we have other things to do. We have to do the things we're talking about

Rafael 29:25

could, wouldn't it be cool if we could get paid for this,

Joel 29:28

that would be cool.

Rafael 29:29

or every-

Misty 29:30

wait, we're getting paid for it right now? Spoiler.

Joel 29:36

don't tell anybody.

Misty 29:38

Gosh, it's so great. Oh, whoops, now everybody knows. Well, maybe, you know. it.

Rafael 29:45

That's

Misty 29:45

Oh.

Rafael 29:47

We are silly executive director.

How To Connect And What’s Next

Misty 29:58

So that is all we have time for on this episode of the More Math for More People podcast. If you are interested in connecting with us on social media, find our links in the podcast description. And the music for the podcast was created by Julius H. and can be found on pixabay.com. So thank you very much, Julius. Join us in two weeks for the next episode of More Math for More People. What day will that be, Joel?

Joel 30:24

It'll be September 29th, our third installment in the month of September, and it's National Coffee Day. Boy, coffee sure has a big history with me. I used to drink coffee all the time. I love coffee so much, and the stories that just center around coffee are immense, so I can't wait to hear all of Misty's. I hope that some of you will share some of your stories with each other, and I'll definitely share my stories of coffee as we celebrate National Coffee Day, September the 29th. you listen then