Episode 6.5: How do you picture taking a monkey to lunch?

An AI voice answers the phone, sounds friendly, and almost passes as human. For a moment it feels convenient, even a little magical, and then something shifts and you realize you’re craving a real person. That tension, between efficiency and human connection, drives our conversation as we explore what AI tools can do well, what they cannot do at all, and why “human review” is quickly becoming a non-negotiable habit. What’s your personal “tell” that you’re talking to AI and not a human? 

Also, it's Take a Monkey to Lunch Day!!! What in the world? We're very curious. If you imagine taking a monkey to lunch... Do it now... What do you imagine it would look like? Let us know!

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The More Math for More People Podcast is produced by CPM Educational Program.
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Transcript

New Setup And Day Of

0:17

Listening to the More Math for More People podcast, an outreach of CPM Educational Program. Boom

Misty 0:31

All right, so here we are. It's our day of. Ba-da.

Joel 0:35

It's that time

Misty 0:36

We're trying out some new recording digs, so maybe we feel... I feel a little bit, like, tentative in some way. I don't know why. Nobody else knows that. I mean, no- well, they know that now, but I... They wouldn't have known it if I hadn't been so

Joel 0:48

Just so you know, I have a warning that we are only reco- recording audio. Just, okay, hold

Misty 0:54

But your vid- but your video is still visible unless you turn off your camera. That's, you know... All right, I need to hide myself, though. I don't like looking at myself when I'm talking. All right, there we go. Okay, so it is,

What Is Take A Monkey Lunch

Misty 1:05

it is the Nash- it is our day of, and I don't remember what day it is right now

Joel 1:10

It's July 21st

Misty 1:11

Okay, great. July 21st. What's the

Joel 1:14

2026, and it is Take a Monkey to Lunch Day.

Misty 1:19

What?

Joel 1:20

Yeah, I'm so excited to talk about this because I, I was looking for that reaction exactly. And

Misty 1:28

It's pretty much my standard

Joel 1:29

what, isn't it a great day, though? Take a monkey to lunch. Who would've

Misty 1:32

I, where are you gonna get a monkey?

Joel 1:35

Well,

Misty 1:35

my first question

Joel 1:37

I, I would say, but then I can't really say because that's ille- I think that's

Misty 1:42

Because it's, uh, illegal to have a monkey? I don't think it's total- I mean, Ross on Friends had a monkey

Joel 1:48

Yeah, but he had to take him to the zoo.

Misty 1:50

Well, yes,

Joel 1:51

And then he got on TV or something. He got, he was an actor

Misty 1:57

So, okay, so, b-

Joel 2:00

Yes. Ask your questions,

Misty 2:02

don't even know which question to ask first. That's the thing. Like, is it take a real monkey to work? Is it take, like, a s- one of those, like, sock monkeys to work? Is it...

Joel 2:12

It's referring

Misty 2:13

to lun- to, to lunch. Not to work, to

Joel 2:15

That's right, it's to lunch

Misty 2:17

Are you taking them to lunch with you, or are you gonna go to a monkey lunch?

Joel 2:23

Y- uh,

Misty 2:24

You don't even know where to start answering my questions, do you, C?

Joel 2:27

or, I think because it, the idea of the holiday is just to bring awareness and celebrate non-human primates, the monkey. And so

Misty 2:37

So it's

Joel 2:38

not go to lunch?

Misty 2:39

to lunch.

Joel 2:39

You could go to lunch with a monkey,

Misty 2:42

I see, I see

Joel 2:43

or you could go to a monkey lunch. Either way, you're w- you're bringing awareness to the holiday

Misty 2:49

I'm just imagining a monkey lunch. Part of it is like the monkeys are being crazy and they're like throwing things around and they're, doing their monkey screams and things like that, which I will not mimic. But then they're, but they're doing it, in my mind, they're doing it at some kind of like fancy tea luncheon or something, which is weird. I don't know why they would be there. But, like you're taking them to a fancy tea, but then they're not behaving. That's the image I have of a monkey lunch

Joel 3:12

I also had the image of actually going somewhere, sitting down, ordering from a menu, but I would have my monkey with me. Like, there weren't necessarily... Just sitting there waiting for my assistance.

Misty 3:27

patiently waiting

Joel 3:29

Yeah. What, I mean, what else are you gonna do when you take a monkey? You gotta behave yourself, otherwise you don't get invited back to lunch.

Misty 3:34

Well, I don't, maybe the monkeys don't care

Joel 3:38

Maybe that's true.

Misty 3:41

Interesting. All right. So, okay, so it is sort of like, when it's just about building awareness, it feels it's more like figuratively speaking. It's sort of like the i- like thinking about the ideas and being aware of

Joel 3:51

that's right.

Misty 3:52

Yeah, yeah. I do like monkeys. I think monkeys are... I like, I like when I go to the zoo and see the monkeys, or seeing monkeys in the wild. Have you seen monkeys in the wild?

Joel 4:02

I have not seen monkeys in the wild

Misty 4:08

Something just happened to your recording

Joel 4:11

I, I

Misty 4:13

No, it did

Joel 4:16

I think something is happening with your recording

Misty 4:21

No, 'cause your, the background noise just

Joel 4:23

I did

Misty 4:24

Now it went away again

Joel 4:26

No, it says it's on.

Misty 4:28

Yeah, now it's back on

Joel 4:29

We'll edit that

Misty 4:32

Okay, well, maybe the, maybe the, maybe this filter will be able to take care of it. We'll figure it out. Ah, anyway. Okay.

Joel 4:42

Sorry.

Misty 4:43

Well, I have see- I've seen monkeys in the

New World Versus Old World Monkeys

Joel 4:45

not. Where did you see them?

Misty 4:47

Did you s- You have not? Costa Rica

Joel 4:50

that's a popular monkey spot

Misty 4:54

It's a popular monkey spot. All the monkeys just go hang out

Joel 4:58

Do you, did you know... Here's some fascinating facts about monkeys.

Misty 5:04

Okay.

Joel 5:05

spread diseases

Misty 5:08

That sort of people

Joel 5:10

I know I'm not comparing them to people. These are monkeys. We're talking about non-human primates here

Misty 5:17

I think that, I think that all animals spread diseases technically

Joel 5:21

What's a New World monkey? New World

Misty 5:25

New World monkey, New World monkeys live in North and South America. Old World monkeys live in like Asia and Africa, Europe I suppose, but mostly Asia and Africa

Joel 5:36

Well, old world, old world monkeys are bigger than new world monkeys, and they don't live in trees New World monkeys do Yeah

Misty 5:53

I, I guess I can't think of any exceptions to that

Joel 5:56

I can't either who, do you know who is considered to be a Take a Monkey to Lunch Day hero? Can you think of somebody who advocates for monkeys

Misty 6:09

Huh. Somebody who advocates for monkeys. No, I'm gonna feel stumped on that

Joel 6:14

Jane Goodall.

Misty 6:16

Oh, well

Joel 6:17

Jane Goodall

Misty 6:18

But see, I don't think of chimpanzees as monkeys

Joel 6:22

But it's a primate, isn't it?

Misty 6:25

Yeah, but pri- not all, not all primates are monkeys.

Joel 6:28

Wow

Misty 6:29

Like apes, apes and monkeys in my mind are different

Joel 6:32

Maybe that

Misty 6:33

I think it depends on what level of biology you're talking about

Joel 6:38

I, I do- I would've thought of a chimpanzee as a monkey

Misty 6:44

Mm-hmm. Interesting. All right. I would not. I would think of a chimpanzee as a chimpanzee

Joel 6:51

I wh- when I was in college, they- Jane Goodall came to speak, and I was chosen to be a student representative to be on stage and listen to her while she was talking. And so that was pretty fun to hear her do the calls like she did. I'm gonna go ahead and call them monkey calls, even though we're having that argument. But, uh, it was really cool to be around Jane Goodall and hear her stories. Yeah

Misty 7:17

That's cool. So according to the Google AI overview, apes are a subgroup of Old World monkeys. So monkeys is a larger class than, uh, apes. Apes are subgroups. All... Well, this doesn't make sense then. All monkeys have tails, whereas apes do not. That's, that doesn't... If it, if apes are a subgroup of monkeys, all monkeys have tails can't be true. So, so anyway but it's like apes is a smaller group. Monkey refers to like all of the other species, including like baboons and macaps, macaques, and capuchins, but not chimpanzees. Apes and, apes is chimpanzees, humans, gorillas, orangutans, and gibbons.

Joel 8:04

Did this sounds like this would be like a good problem from geometry when you're trying to formulize proof.

Misty 8:13

Yeah. Well, the whole point is like apes can't be a subgroup... Well, it's a subgroup of old world monkeys, but then you can't say

Simple Ways To Celebrate Monkeys

Misty 8:20

all monkeys have tails, but apes don't. That doesn't, that does not, that, my brain is really struggling with that statement. Anyway.

Joel 8:28

Uh, that's one way you could celebrate Take a Monkey to Lunch Day is think about that statement or maybe talk it through with your monkey. Can you think of some other ways that you might celebrate this day?

Misty 8:40

I don't know, make a donation to something that helps preserve monkeys.

Joel 8:44

not on my list, but I bet you could. You could visit a zoo

Misty 8:51

Oh, nice.

Joel 8:52

You could wear a monkey costume Okay.

Misty 8:57

not doing that

Joel 8:58

You could... It sa- it says it might feel silly, but it might, it might be a good experience for you. Or you can just learn about monkeys, and I think we've done that here today.

Misty 9:11

We, we've definitely done that here today. Well, awesome. Enjoy Take a Monkey to Lunch Day with your monkeys

Claude, Voices, And Anthropomorphism

Rafael 9:37

Hello.

Joel 9:38

Hello.

Rafael 9:39

I'm sorry I'm late.

Misty 9:40

fine

Rafael 9:41

Uh, the game was over, and then I started chit-chatting with Claude, and Claude is very chatty. Very chatty. And I'm chatty, so

Misty 9:52

Claude is very chatty.

Rafael 9:54

Yes. Claude is getting spicy with, with like some of the stuff that it, he, they

Misty 10:02

Mm-hmm.

Joel 10:03

If if Claude had-- Do you imagine a voice in your head

Rafael 10:06

Oh, that's interesting Well, I imagine a guy 'cause he's Claude, although may- that

Misty 10:12

a sort of, it's sort of a male-ish name usually.

Rafael 10:15

Right. Could be an assumption, right?

Misty 10:17

Yep

Joel 10:19

Is there an accent there?

Rafael 10:21

Huh, this is so interesting. So I didn't have, an image before, but I feel like by the time we're done, I will have an image. So I'm going to say French, a French

Misty 10:32

Yeah, it, it's that, that's again, I think there's a lot of context in there which might show our

Joel 10:40

it's something,

Misty 10:42

as well.

Joel 10:42

do you think it's something you could ask Claude?

Rafael 10:45

Oh.

Joel 10:46

How do you sound?

Rafael 10:47

Do you sound?

Joel 10:48

you have an accent?"

Rafael 10:49

Do you have an... Oh

Misty 10:49

What is-- Okay, is that, that's a very relative question. Do you have an

Joel 10:53

Ah, that's true.

Rafael 10:53

Yeah.

Joel 10:55

True

Rafael 10:55

and and I feel like that is a road I have really avoided. Like,

Joel 11:00

Yeah.

Rafael 11:00

ev- even though I'm clearly personalizing Claude to some degree, I'm like, like I feel like I have lines.

Misty 11:07

a step of anthropomorphication you

Rafael 11:09

this line, Claude will become more human, and I don't want Claude to be more human. He's human enough

Misty 11:20

I do feel like it's our job to be the humans.

Joel 11:25

Just

Misty 11:25

Which is a complicated thing to

Joel 11:27

Yeah.

Misty 11:28

to be a human. It's very complicated

Rafael 11:31

Yeah. Claude makes it feel easy, right? Like, I feel like the AI agents that are emerging, they have... It's like, how do I put it? They do things that are actually very complicated for humans, and yet we must continue to look over their shoulder,

Misty 11:52

Mm-hmm.

Joel 11:53

Right

Rafael 11:53

right? To make sure that within all that resolution of complexity, we don't lose, like, this vital

Misty 12:01

Mm-hmm.

Rafael 12:02

I'm going like this

Misty 12:03

Yeah. Yeah. I like that. Well, I know how to describe that in The on the audio podcast, but I

Rafael 12:11

human element

Misty 12:12

yeah. I mean, it's like, there's like, well, it's like something that can do a lot of tasks, can grapple with a lot of information and data points, right? Like data, like the, the, the number of in- the amount of information is bamboozling to us. But it, but it doesn't necessarily... I don't, I don't wanna how to call it other than in like, this is not the right word, but like, it's the, it's the intelligence part. It's the like, oh, it's the ethical part. It's the so- you know, it's the other part of like, are, how, like... And the interesting thing is that as I'm saying this even, I'm like, and we think that we know what that is. like

Rafael 12:48

Ri-right

Misty 12:49

We- It's very, very clear that we're not good at predicting what happens when we do particular stuff, right? Like for throughout history, this is very clear. Yes.

Joel 13:00

my, in

Oversight, Autonomy, And Math Authority

Joel 13:01

my mind, these are different things, but I'm also hearing when we try to give-- share that math authority or give authority to our students in our classroom, I better be circulating, right? And watching and yeah.

Rafael 13:13

Fair. Like they have they have opportunities, right? When, when given autonomy and mathematical power, right? They have uh, an opportunity to create something really solid mathematically, or they can also create misconceptions and,

Joel 13:29

Sure

Rafael 13:30

you know, and, and I think we're all about like, well, e-even if you're pursuing a road that is not mathematically sound, there's something to be learned, right? Counterexample. Okay, that didn't work. Let's go back to the beginning. And, and I guess I, I, I wonder, I don't, I don't know. Can, can Claude, I don't know why I'm keep referring to just Claude, although lately I feel like the Claude is like, like the good AI. Oops, probably, probably can't say that.

Misty 14:00

Uh, the other

Rafael 14:01

that out later.

Misty 14:02

a note of that, by the way.

Rafael 14:03

right, like right, like next time I try to use like, which I'm not currently, but ChatGPT does... Oh, so you need the bad AI all of a sudden But my point is, I won-- I, I have posed to the company I believe on a number of occasions, this notion of like, could an AI instrument be part of a study team dynamic, right? Could an AI agent be there for not, not necessarily recalling information, although that could be part of its function, but more for a questioning, right? Uh, another all-knowing but not all feeling, not all ethically wired part of their study team. I've just wondered about that. And then I always wonder, w-will that be a good thing, right? Was that-- Will that be a good addition or would that be a harmful addition? And I don't think we adults have figured it out, so we probably should take a beat before we expose young people

Misty 15:12

as you, as you say that, it occurs to me that like the people who in our company who work in the, in the sales capacity, though they might not be labeled as that, are doing-- are working with an AI agent to try to develop their skills, right

Rafael 15:27

Yes, they are

Misty 15:27

And, and I have seen some frustration in trying to pass, right? 'Cause there's certain metrics and numbers they need to meet and, and, you know, responses it's wanting and encouraging them and so on. And, and, you know, so like there's this, part of like, you know, like, uh, the intent is for them to learn and ma- and to make sense of things, right? And then also it's like, okay, but I need to do these things and I need to get to a place and I have to, you know, pass this level or whatever, so there's a, there's a game, you know, like I have to do this

Rafael 15:57

Yeah. No,

Misty 15:58

I can get to the next thing too.

Joel 16:00

Hmm.

Misty 16:01

Um, so just as I think about like, you know, using that kind of, a thing with, with younger people, right, than us, like how would, how might that look and what, what benefits are, you know... I mean, there's benefits, there's, there's benefits and not benefits for all of the things.

Rafael 16:18

Well, I wonder, I mean, just keeping this line going as soon as you bring in those bench-- Like, if you're being graded for whatever reason by AI, that in my mind is different than using a tool that's going to just... That, that you're gonna own fully, right? It's not gonna look over your shoulder. You're, you're gonna look over its shoulder, so to speak, right? And I think, uh, the sales example is a great one because if you're using it as a self-improvement tool that has its own limitations like all other tools, that's different than being measured and tracked and graded, and that, that brings me all the way back to our study teams.

Misty 16:59

Yeah Yeah. Well, the, it's, I think it's that difference between like a coaching capacity, right? Like a coaching, mentoring kind of capacity versus a like, like you're saying, an evaluating kind of capacity, right? Hmm.

AI Advice From The Experts

Rafael 17:17

It's interesting because I, I had thought that AI might be a thing we would wanna talk about. And I mean, I to- I took a whole like, you know, um, the Kellogg School at, at Northwestern. I took a whole three-day, you know, seminar, uh, that brought together, uh, AI experts from academia

Misty 17:38

Mm-hmm.

Rafael 17:38

talk to leaders across all sorts of sectors on, on what's up with AI. Like, you know, and of course, every time, I think this is wired into me as a boomer, right? Like, oh, I go to this thing, seminar, workshop, class, and I will learn. I will come out of it as an output, having learned, be more learned in AI,

Joel 18:03

Mm-hmm

Rafael 18:04

right? Or the topic at hand.

Joel 18:05

Sure

Rafael 18:06

And I have to say, in this case, and it's not like it wasn't wonderful, it was really interesting, but, but, my takeaway was that even the experts, folks steeped, at least in the aca-academia sector, really don't have too much to tell us beyond some of the things that are already on our plate. Use it with care. Share no personal information, And that opens up a whole other world, but we could do a whole podcast on what is personal. I, I'm pretty sure you don't feed your taxes into it. And, a-and then also be really, really careful about how you use it externally. So this was another message that really stuck with me. Like, a lot of companies, entities are using it for internal thinking, uh, processing, prompting. I think the human review right? now is essential. Like, you know, AI slop is real. It's out there. It's coming to your inbox soon, I think, no matter where you are. So that caution. But just a real be very careful whether you're Google, CPM, the department of fill in the blank, before you put it out there as an external agent, right, that steps in sort of in lieu of a human connection.

Misty 19:28

Hmm Mm-hmm. So we're not gonna have the AI start like, you know, taking care of all of our sales and connections and, and doing that work, but It can help us, us to do that work. Yeah, no

Rafael 19:43

Right. It helps us, and then of course, there's a question of what, what does that all look like in terms of workload? Um,

Misty 19:50

Hmm.

Teddy The Vet Bot And Trust

Rafael 19:51

I ha- I have an example, by the way, for me as a consumer. So our uh, our veterinarian,

Misty 19:59

Mm-hmm

Rafael 19:59

uh, has an AI agent. His name is Teddy. And Teddy is so human-like that the first time I spoke to Teddy, I really thought I

Misty 20:10

to Teddy on the phone?

Rafael 20:11

It's on the phone, yes. You call, and they, and it's like, "Hi, I'm Teddy." And doesn't outright identify himself, itself, or whatever as an AI. He's just Teddy, and I'm like, "Hi, Teddy." I'm like, I, I fell into it. I started having a conversation with Teddy, and it took a good 30, dare I say maybe 45 seconds before I realized I was not talking to a human because it was very... Like in some ways, that was great. It was like, you know, at the end of the conversation, I already knew it was an AI agent at that point, but like, "Give Lola a little scratch for us," and it was, uh, like programmed to have the dog name. So there was a certain like, oh, how, how whimsical, how interesting. But the bottom line is I have grown to resent Teddy. I, I, I don't really wanna talk to a Teddy. I w- I want-- Like there are times where I'm calling, and even though it's a simple task that Teddy could absolutely do,

Misty 21:08

Mm-hmm.

Rafael 21:09

I crave the human connection. Like I wanna talk to the woman who truly greets Lola at the veterinarian office

Misty 21:18

Hmm. Mm-hmm

Joel 21:19

I had something similar for a different reason, but the, the voice took me almost a minute to figure out I'm not talking to somebody. But the, at the end it was, "Let me call you back when I have that information." and then the real person called me back. so it was like a handoff. so instead of me pushing buttons for this office or this office,

Rafael 21:43

Hmm.

Misty 21:43

Hmm.

Joel 21:43

it got me to that

Rafael 21:45

And how did you feel about it?

Joel 21:47

I wish I could have just talked to, the real person to begin with because that's why I was calling. If you're gonna call me back, we could have had this already sort of thing

Misty 21:56

Sure. Well, I think, okay, so I don't-- I'm think that the piece that's niggling in my brain is that, not that it took you time to figure out, like, I'm not, this is clearly not a shaming that it took you a minute to figure out it was AI, to be clear. It, yeah, it's more like what is it that cues us it's not a person? 'cause it didn't ever, if it didn't ever come out and say, "Oh, by the way, I'm an AI agent here to help you there's there's, still something in that conversation that at some point we're like, "I don't think this is a person."

Joel 22:32

I think for me it became the, the responses. Like it wasn't quite in line to what we were talking about.

Misty 22:42

It felt canned or some sort of Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Joel 22:46

Like it went from being a personal hello, Lola, stuff like that, a personal conversation to just a little say hi to your dog or, you know, like

Misty 22:57

Uh-huh.

Joel 22:58

that shift

Misty 22:59

Interesting.

Rafael 22:59

agree. I think it's the cadence, right? And when you start like, "Hi, I'm Te-," like, you know, that, that exchange, that sort of greeting that we do somewhat mechanically is, I think, easily mimicked. But then you start deviating from the right human cadence, and there's just like... It's subtle though, I have to say. That's why I think it takes a minute because, well, I guess frankly, there are humans who speak

Misty 23:26

I was gonna, I was gonna say as a person with some neurodiversity, like there's, like, there's little, like picking up what's not typical human patterns and, you know, speech and, you know, like you said, can be easily mimicked. Like tho- like those all like ping in my brain as things I'm like, "Well, I've done many of those things my whole life." Like, you know? Z-- And, and we all do, Right. And so there's this, that's a, it's an interesting... And, and I love that it's like, it's just nuance. Like it's hard to even point to what the thing is, but it's the accumulation of tiny little signals that eventually... And because it's a thing that's happening in our world, right? We're becoming more aware of it and so on, like that we're like w- we suspect, right? And then we decide Yeah. That's interesting

Rafael 24:16

Do

Dystopia, Generations, And Creative Fear

Rafael 24:17

you all think that the dystopic versus utopic, you know, kind of debate is generational?

Misty 24:28

Hmm.

Rafael 24:29

Like, is it, is it like boomers like me going, "Oh my gosh, this is what we read about in, in 1984," like before 1984 was upon us?

Misty 24:39

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Before 1984 was like more than 40 years ago.

Rafael 24:44

Exactly

Joel 24:45

Right

Misty 24:45

It's kinda crazy. It's hard for me to say that most of the people that I talk to about this are also of a similar generation and have, I would say some variation of like, "Yeah, it's probably gonna get us at some point to outright like, yeah, we're screwed," kinds of, you

Rafael 25:05

Right. So we are probably at

Misty 25:07

mother is still very convinced. She's like, "I'm not using any AI." I'm like, "Okay, goo- go right ahead, Mom." Like,

Joel 25:13

Right

Misty 25:13

up your phone again and do some things." But she's like, "I'm, I'm just not gonna do the AI I'm like, "Okay." I mean, but she's at another generation, right? So there's... but Yeah, I don't know. I don't, I, haven't had this conversation with millennials even, probably. I mean, well, Joel's on the verge, but like, like for sure not Gen Z-ers or Alphas, you know, like beyond, like much younger.

Joel 25:39

that be even in their mindset, right? Like,

Misty 25:42

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. There, there's still a lot of dystopian... Like, the dystopian, like the post-apocalyptic dystopian sort of storyline is still very, very prevalent. Very, very prevalent in, in any age group

Rafael 25:59

I, I had an interesting window when I, you know, I got to teach at a at a small university for a year. And so I did have undergraduates and graduate students, you know, of that. I, I can't peg the generations. There's so many now, it's hard. Like, I guess there always were many, but I just wasn't tracking them. Uh, and I, I was surprised that there are some real skeptics, I mean, among the, the younger generations. And, you know, I, I, I tried to find a pattern. I mean, I think I found kinda one pattern, which is folks who are in the creative world, right? So artists, art teachers, writers, you know, folks who identify as creatives, I think see this, And I, I get it. Like, I understand where they're coming from. See this as a, a real threat to their, uh, generation of ideas and, and art and, and visual beauty and so forth. And then there were, um, there was definitely a pattern of the younger educa- educators who were gonna work with younger populations being pretty firm about keeping not just AI, but technology in general out of, out of play spaces, out of emergent, you know, spaces, be it Montessori, Reggio, whatever. And, uh, that was interesting to me that w- that we teachers k- we know collectively what parts of the, you know, pre-K to 16 plus continuum need protecting, I think

Misty 27:34

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Schools, Devices, And Developmental Timing

Joel 27:37

Yeah, I think-- So here in Utah, it's actually a law, right? That they've put into place that you can't have devices in the schools right now. And So I'm just thinking about that, like we... So then what are we teaching more of We're teaching a human experience that somebody might not get to experience outside of that environment

Rafael 28:00

And you're talking about the kind of g- legal constraints that are happening like in California and other places, more in the six through 12

Joel 28:08

Correct

Rafael 28:09

Yeah.

Misty 28:10

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rafael 28:12

that's interesting because I was about to say that we, we somehow think that there's a moment, second grade, third grade, fifth grade, there's like a moment where it's okay, you know?

Joel 28:25

Mm-hmm.

Rafael 28:25

Like y- we've waited this far. We, we knew it... Like, you know it's, you know it's not okay to pre-K, for pre-K, right? And somehow we know that third and fourth grade it's time. A- and that, that depends on a very, Like linear developmental spectrum, right? Like, what if a third or fourth grader really is not in any way ready?

Misty 28:49

Mm-hmm.

Rafael 28:50

And I would argue, some folks would argue, I'm not saying I would, but some folks would argue that, some young people are ready earlier. So is it more complicated than that? I don't know

Misty 29:01

Yeah. Well, and

Why Concrete Math Still Matters

Misty 29:04

it, it's interesting 'cause like as you're talking about that it makes me, reminds me about even, just as an example, when we were-- when we wrote the "Core Connections" first edition, which is now in its third edition, right. We wrote a book, right? And it, that's all it was was a book. And then it became an e-book, right? And the e-book was enhanced with tools and, various other links and, you know, oh, great, you can click And, find the graph. and I remember very distinctly there was a, point where I was like, "Wait a second. I don't think I want sixth graders clicking on this and just moving not real tiles around on a mat." Like the whole point is for them to have this physical experience so they can, like, build a physical idea and then build into a, like, a, you know, an abstract. First it's an abstraction of the tiles themselves connected to an abstraction that is a symbo- symbols, right? And I was like, moving them around on a screen is still an abstraction of it and so we went through and we really, we did a review even where we were like "Okay, where d- where do the t- tiles, one, stay with the intent of the lesson or the e-tools," whatever we had, "stay with the intent of the lesson, and where are they perhaps not, we'll call it developmentally appropriate?" right? And I remember we took a lot of them out, a lot of the e-tools back out of particularly the sixth grade and some in the seventh grade, and like in those middle school years where, like a lot of that transition, as a person who taught in middle school for 15 years Right A lot of that transition of like abstract abstraction happens, right? Usually.

Rafael 30:50

And I think it's one of our continued strengths that we offer multiple venues for for learning, and some of them are digital and some of them are, you know, paper, pencil, uh, tactile. The tiles are interesting. It-- I, I, I had a conversation recently w- uh, it was kind of funny because it was about how our writers and, and creatives work with developers, right And how important it is that they, they work together hand-in-hand all along the path, right? Because there was a conversation where, uh, someone was like, "Well, well, is that one tile really that important?" And of course, the, the pedagogical colleague was like, "Yes, 'cause you can't complete the square without that one t-" Like, it's not like just a bunch of tiles that you're building a, a, a thing. You're, as you said, you're taking a, a, a representation of a representation. And the farther you get from, you know, kind of the, the concrete work that kids do, you know in pre-K, one, two, three, fourth grade, the more, the more distant you are from the data that is shaping your brain, Right

Misty 31:59

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, one of the, one of the key moments for me, like in this whole idea of like abstraction and thinking about things was I was listening to some, I some video I was watching one time. I just remember it was Jo Boaler, and Jo Boaler was talking about how when, like functional MRIs show, I'm gonna very much just gist this, functional MRIs show that when we think-- when we add numbers, the part of our brain that imagines fingers, right? Where we would see our fingers, lights up. Like, we are still using our fingers in our head. Like, if that's, like that whole, you know, to me, and then she really talked about like with kids, you know, if you're still using your fingers, like they haven't internalized that enough, right? To move away from the concrete pieces. And that's not, that's not a bad thing. That just means that's, you haven't moved to that point yet, right? that whole difference of how long, when people ask, "How long should kids use t- you know, algebra tiles to solve?" I'm like, "Until they don't need them."

Joel 32:58

right

Misty 32:59

You know? How long should I wait? Longer.

Rafael 33:02

exactly. Yes, longer

Joel 33:05

then I'm thinking about the w- I'm gonna make an assumption that, we... grew up counting fingers. Now somebody who's just being born now might not grow up that way 'cause they have a different technology. Their brain's gonna form in a different way. And then are we gonna put them maybe into the-- an environment where we take that away and go to counting fingers so they would get to the counting in a different direction biologically?

Misty 33:31

I think that the idea of one-to-one correspondence, right? Kids start with this idea like that like, oh, it's there are three things eventually becomes the number three that doesn't have to represent individual objects is still a developmental thing that happens, right? We have to go through like The things that Piaget and, you know, all these other, you know, psychiatr- what do you all say? But when they discuss like those, that the development parts of our brain haven't... I don't think that's changed. I don't know. Maybe I'm wrong. I could be totally wrong on that, and our brains at some point, but I don't think they have

Rafael 34:05

Get rewired. The thing is, we still-- Like, I used to, you know, pose the question to students in typically middle school where you were living, I was living, and I'd be like, "Why do we have a base 10 system?" Period. Just put it in the classroom, and they'd be like, "I, I don't know." And I would literally do things like this, and they I am raising all my fingers. And they still would be like, "What are you doing? Why are you being silly?"

Misty 34:32

Why are you giving us jazz hands?

Rafael 34:37

And it's just curious because I think... I don't know. I don't know what I think about this. I th- I, I think that there is a constancy to the, the counting. Fingers are, like, there to count. Like, surely there's some evolutionary pathway where that just made a ton of sense to use our bodies to figure something out

Misty 34:59

Well, and even, even other cultures that, use, have historically, right, used different bases, still used body parts to, to, to, I don't know, to like count them, right? To keep track

Rafael 35:11

Or other tangible a- uh, objects.

Misty 35:14

Mm-hmm. I don't know. If, I mean, how do, I'm not sure how that relates to AI. See, this is a problem, the AI does, can't imagine fingers.

Rafael 35:26

Well, I think AI goes like, they-- these are large language modules,

Voice, Efficiency, And Final Human Edit

Rafael 35:31

right? So in some ways, and and, you know, I know AI is getting better at math. AI was not good at math for quite a long time. Now it's... Anyway, I've read some stuff that suggests, uh, that that may be, that gap may be closing. But what AI now does is it creates a, a framework for our languaging that we didn't have before. And on the one hand, I'm like, "Wow, cool. We can get to A coherent paragraph, paper, report, executive summary more quickly. Awesome." And we do lose voice, right? we lose voice. like, what, what I'm noticing even in my own interaction with Claude, now we're back to Claude, is that like I have to insist that Claude use my voice.

Misty 36:24

Hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rafael 36:25

I will literally say to Claude like, "Okay, you've gotten to know me enough. I, I like this sort of, you know, most of it. Now put it in my voice." And when you ask it that, I don't know if you've ever tried that, it actually does sound more like you. And then it, i-in my world, the world I live in for AI, I have to have the last word. I don't know if that's gonna go away or not, but I have to go in there even if it looks really, really good and, and scan it. And I think that's where folks, you know, you get other set of camps, right? Another set of camps. Oh, it's, it's more work th- it's a- it's more work than doing it yourself versus no, at some point there's an efficiency. And I would argue that once you have enough templates, particularly in, in, in work that is not like straight up creative, it does help you move forward in your thinking as long as you don't abdicate thinking to, to it, to, to Claude.

Joel 37:31

Collaborating

Rafael 37:32

Yeah

Misty 37:37

Wow. Well, that was a great conversation. Thank you.

Rafael 37:40

did we wanna do this today?

Misty 37:42

I don't-- I mean,

Joel 37:43

No, I think we did

Misty 37:44

good. that was good.

Rafael 37:45

okay. Yeah, you guys, I, I am always amazed at what you can pull out of, like, what is truly like... It's like eh, Claude, go.

Misty 37:55

Yeah.

Joel 37:55

Yeah.

Misty 37:56

Right.

Rafael 37:56

Steady teams, go

Misty 37:58

I mean, I thought we were gonna come in and talk about the World Cup, but, you know, that's,

Rafael 38:02

Well, let's talk about it for a minute. No

Joel 38:04

Okay.

World Cup Patterns And New Fans

Rafael 38:08

So I have become a World Cup-- like I've become a soccer fan.

Misty 38:13

Yeah. Yeah, no, I,

Rafael 38:14

Cup has achieved that thing that I thought would never happen, because my view of soccer was always like, it's really fun, like, you bring the scarf with you to the stadium, and you get in, and it's like super exciting,

Misty 38:27

very exciting to go in

Rafael 38:28

flag, and then everyone's standing up, so that's your first like, "Huh, are they gonna stand up the whole time?"

Misty 38:33

Yeah, probably

Rafael 38:35

then because I did not understand the game, full disclosure, I, I classified it or categorized it as, as quote unquote boring. But now when I see like more of the patterns within the game of soccer, it becomes more and more interesting. And now I'm like curious, right? Like now I'm curious about the rules and the nuances. It's a very nuanced game in terms of the rules and all sorts of things. It's interesting. And I kind of understand like, like the whole goalllll, you know, like, like making that thing like a huge deal. And this, again, my old point of view was like, why, why carry that on? Like, okay, goal, carry on. Extra point, carry on. And now I understand that like, like emotion goes from like here to here to here in soccer in like

Misty 39:29

Mm-hmm.

Rafael 39:31

span, and it's kinda cool cool to watch

Misty 39:34

really quickly sometimes. I think it's been really interesting watching different teams. One, I always like things like World Cup, Olympics, any kind of playoffs in sport. like I, that just love that, like, oh, the tension of one, you know, one team's gonna be on the top of the world, the other one's gonna be cr- you know, crushed. Uh, that sort of thing I've always loved that And, but I really think it's interesting in the World Cup, different, these, 'cause these different teams have very different kinds of strategies and strengths. like the game, the feel of the game can be really different 'cause some teams are much more aggressive and scoring more goals. Some are more defensive. They're, clearly they're like, whether they're doing a 4-1-3-2 or a 4-2-2, whatever, 4-4-1. Like, I mean, that like, shifts things also, like how they're arranging their people. and, then, like, they talk a lot about set plays. like I hear, or set pieces, right? And I don't know. what any of them are, but I can see they're doing it. Like, I'm like, "Okay, this is the thing they've practiced. This is the thing they're, you know, trying to do." But yeah, it's, it's... And then just the skill level at that, level. The, their ability to, like, run and kick a ball at the same time is pretty amazing.

Joel 40:45

Yeah Yeah. And what was it the other a few games ago, Argentina... I think it's Argentina-Egypt, they're behind two-nothing, and then they just go score three goals, and it's

Misty 40:59

there's a lot of

Joel 41:00

that was 90 minutes to just go do that Yeah. It was great

Rafael 41:05

but you're right, it's more chess-like in my mind. Whereas... And I, I will remain an American football fan. I like American football, but

Misty 41:13

100%.

Rafael 41:13

think, I think American football might be more like checkers

Joel 41:16

Mm.

Rafael 41:17

a little bit, right? 'Cause it's very, it's very like line up.

Misty 41:22

Mm-hmm.

Joel 41:23

Yeah

Rafael 41:24

are, I

Misty 41:24

to get to the other side.

Rafael 41:25

predictable. Whereas here it's like this fluidity that's happening all over the field.

Misty 41:31

Well, and sometimes they're just out there just, you know, moving the ball around and doing a thing and just waiting for that one little break. It's, it's pretty amazing. It's pretty amazing. Yeah. Yeah, so I, I very much enjoyed it. And I think, like, this is the first time in many years now that it's been in our time zones, right?

Joel 41:50

Yeah.

Misty 41:51

it's been much, much easier to get into and watch continuously, so...

Rafael 41:55

Well, and in Seattle, 'cause we were, we were one

Misty 41:56

Yeah

Rafael 41:58

of those places the impact has been incredible. And it was, I mean, part of what I love, I, I too, Misty, love all these like gatherings from different parts of the planet to play a sport. And I know y- you, you know, some folks have gotten cynical with, with good cause, like, you know, the corporatization of all this. But at the heart of it, I still see that like interesting connecting across different, um, different countries, different cultures. And in Seattle it had a huge, huge effect

Joel 42:33

I was we had the 2002 Winter Olympics, and I, was very much against having it. Like, "This is gonna wreck our city. This is gonna be awful." And it was the best, like, two weeks ever. It was so cool

Misty 42:47

coming back again, right?

Joel 42:48

those people. 34, 2034.

Misty 42:51

Mm-hmm. Nice.

Joel 42:52

So I'm wondering if you had something similar in Seattle, like if you're surprised by that or not?

Rafael 42:59

No, I am. I mean, I, uh, soccer has been a soc-- I mean, uh, Seattle has been a soccer city for, for, for many years, right? So people were pretty jazzed to have it. But then it's, it became an economic story. Like w- like we, we thought more people would come.

Misty 43:15

Mm.

Rafael 43:15

the hotels aren't filling. I'm like, well, like, first of all, wait it out, right?

Joel 43:21

Yeah.

Rafael 43:22

And it turns out that in the end, as, as, as more people started making decisions to come here and people in the city got engaged with it yeah, there was a huge impact. And getting into the stadium, like, honestly was a two to $4,000 proposition. So,

Misty 43:39

Yeah

Rafael 43:40

I get the skepticism, and that's what leads people to go like, "Eh." But then Seattle did something unique I think among the host cities. It created a dispersion of watch areas.

Seattle Watch Parties And City Energy

Joel 43:53

Okay

Rafael 43:53

was this barge that was brought right up to the waterfront, and it was this big barge with a big TV and probably holding thousands of people. But then there was one in uh, the convention center by the stadium, and there was another one at the Armory by Seattle Center. And so it dispersed the watch parties all over the city. But our most fun watch party was just right here on Bainbridge Island.

Joel 44:17

Oh

Rafael 44:18

Okay, this is off the record.

Misty 44:20

Okay. Okay. Well, we'll edit this part out

Rafael 44:22

Yeah. I mean, there's nothing really saucy here, to be honest, just two old guys like meeting young people. So we go to, we go to the, the nearby winery, and there's a beautiful rooftop deck, and we're there, and we're cheering on, and it was Mexico and, oh gosh, or Eng- England, right? And we were rooting for Mexico, you know, full disclosure, right? It was a good match. And these young women, you know, come up to our table, and they're like making conversation. I mean, it was all above board, obviously. Um, and we had the best time watching this game. Like they came like, "You mind if we sit here?" And we just started g-- And I suspect that that sort of thing is what makes the city experience and the local experience really, really fun. It's like there you are at a table with people from another part of the world watching the same thing and kinda getting a kick out of it. So, ha-ha. No, no pun intended.

Misty 45:26

Oh, yeah. Oh, man. All right. Well, as always, Raphael, it's a

Rafael 45:33

All right. See what you can do with that.

Misty 45:34

Uh, we-

Rafael 45:35

really curious

Misty 45:38

You make it sound like I'm gonna do some magical changes to it. No, I'm

Rafael 45:41

You guys are magical. I, I think--

Wrap Up And Cookie Day Tease

Misty 45:44

And put it out there for people So that is all we have time for on this episode of the More Math For More People podcast. If you are interested in connecting with us on social media, find our links in the podcast description. And the music for the podcast was created by Julius H. and can be found on pixabay.com. So thank you very much, Julius. Join us in two weeks for the next episode of More Math For More People. What day will that be, Joel?

Joel 46:19

It will be August 4th, National Chocolate Chip Cookie Day. So Misty and I will talk about chocolate chip cookies, maybe some cookies in general. I remember one time when I was growing up, mom was at work and my aunt was taking care of me, so I wanted to make my mom some cookies. So I went to my cookbook I had to make a sugar cookie, and I made sugar cookies that were so hard that they would break your teeth, but my mom still told me I was a great cook anyway. So maybe we'll share that story, maybe others. But more than just sugar cookies, it's Chocolate Chip Cookie Day. So I can't wait to see you on August 4th. See you then