Episode 5.23: We get a lot of mileage out of our values discussion with Rafael

National Odometer Day sounds like a joke until you follow the math hiding in plain sight. We kick things off by unpacking what an odometer actually measures, why it can help prevent mileage fraud, and how it connects to geometry you can feel in your hands.

From there, our conversation opens up with Rafael del Castillo, CPM's Executive Director, as we reflect on five years of the More Math for More People podcast, the guests who’ve shaped our thinking, and the kind of math education community that forms when people show up ready to share. We also get real about remote work versus in person time: some work can happen virtually, but values clarity, strategy, and deep listening often need space, presence, and patience. 

The heart of the episode is leadership and strategic planning through the lens of healthy tension. We talk about values that pull in different directions, why “both-and” thinking matters, and how leaders can listen to learn rather than listening to respond. 

If you enjoyed this, subscribe, share it with a colleague, leave a review, and tell us: what tension are you trying to navigate in your work right now?

The More Math for More People Podcast is produced by CPM Educational Program.
Learn more at CPM.org
X: @cpmmath
Facebook: CPMEducationalProgram
Email: cpmpodcast@cpm.org

Transcript

Prime Dates And A New Holiday

Joel 0:17

You are listening to the More Math For More People Podcast, an outreach CPM educational program. Boom.

Misty 0:32

we are. It is the 12th of May.

Joel 0:37

It is.

Misty 0:37

Oh 5 1 2, 2 0, 2 6.

Joel 0:40

WhIch is the last prime? No,

Misty 0:43

No, that's not a prime at all. It can't be prime. It's

Joel 0:46

six. Yeah.

Misty 0:46

yeah, no prime. There's no prime numbers. Including the year in this? In this year. Not next year. Next year. Maybe it's 27. Okay. Anyway, so not prime at all. But what day is it?

Joel 0:59

It is National Odometer Day.

Misty 1:01

Odometer. What? We have a day to celebrate Odometers.

Joel 1:05

Yes,

Misty 1:06

Wow.

Joel 1:07

we do.

Misty 1:08

Other than reporting it because you're starting to sell your car,

Joel 1:12

Mm.

Misty 1:13

I mean, I get, it's kind of, I don't know. I,

Joel 1:16

That's one of the things it says is why we, we appreciate Odometers,

Misty 1:21

'cause we need to sell our

Joel 1:22

is it helps us spot fraud,

Misty 1:25

Really?

Joel 1:26

which is in.

Misty 1:27

The

Joel 1:28

Cars

Misty 1:28

people

Joel 1:29

sell cars?

Misty 1:30

when like people sell it and they like falsely report the odometer 'cause they did something else to it.

Joel 1:36

Like you run the wheels

Misty 1:38

You can't do that. That doesn't work. We saw that on Ferris Bueller.

Joel 1:42

oh,

Misty 1:42

It doesn't actually work that way.

Joel 1:44

crashed the car. It ended badly for Cameron.

Misty 1:47

was just bad.

Joel 1:48

Alright.

Misty 1:49

I didn't like that movie.

Joel 1:51

Really? I, I

Misty 1:52

him annoying 'cause he was getting away with everything and that just annoyed me.

Joel 1:57

You're like the sister

Misty 1:58

I was pretty much, yes. I was just like, he was freaking annoying. Anyway, so odometer

Joel 2:03

Yes.

Misty 2:04

Yeah. So I am curious why, what is the justification of having

Joel 2:09

For having

Odometers Speedometers And Tire Size

Joel 2:10

this day. Well, I think, you know, technology wise, pretty cool. Um.

Misty 2:16

okay. Odometers and Speedometers are integrated, you know, that.

Joel 2:22

No.

Misty 2:23

If your odometer, if your speedometer is off, that means your odometers are off too.

Joel 2:27

Oh, well,

Misty 2:28

cause they both rely on how many times the wheel goes

Joel 2:31

oh, I suppose

Misty 2:31

and how big the wheel is.

Joel 2:33

And what if you change your tire size?

Misty 2:35

That's change. That's exactly what I'm saying because then it's a different, every time it goes around. Right. This is the whole radius and circumference thing. Every time it goes around, it goes a different distance and it's gonna be calibrated to a certain distance per RPM.

Joel 2:49

Wow.

Misty 2:50

So Odometers and speedometers are just RPMs converted to

Joel 2:54

That makes sense. That makes sense. Do you know, so just going back to why we're celebrating this

Misty 3:00

yes, yes,

Joel 3:01

is let's get a little history.

Misty 3:03

Okay.

Joel 3:04

Do you know when the recorded, I won't say when it was invented, 'cause prob I've

Misty 3:08

it was invented at some point though. This is the question, how time this question would be relevant.

Joel 3:12

It probably is actually. When, when was the first odometer invented of that? When? When is the recorded date of that?

Misty 3:23

Uh, I'm gonna guess probably like in the twenties or thirties. 1920s or thirties.

Joel 3:28

You are very far off.

Misty 3:30

Oh

Joel 3:31

So the Han Dynasty invents the first odometer between the years 2 0 6 BC and 2 20 80.

Misty 3:39

Okay. Okay. I

Joel 3:43

a ways

Misty 3:44

to know what that odometer looks like and how it records.

Joel 3:46

pictures, but I bet Google.

Misty 3:49

All right, well Google that and let us know the Han Dynasty odometer. What does it look like? How does it work? Because I'm

The First Odometer Was Ancient

Misty 3:55

way off. Yes. I was thinking, you know, like modern cars. Hmm.

Joel 4:01

So this is a weird timeline because it puts this next,

Misty 4:06

Uh huh.

Joel 4:08

that this thing is before the odometer

Misty 4:11

What?

Joel 4:12

that we started measuring distances

Misty 4:15

Oh, like those little like wheel ones that you like, right? Like, like they have surveyors use 'em. Or like I, my kids had one where they just like, it's a little wheel on a stick

Joel 4:24

I think it's very similar to that,

Misty 4:27

of an odometer.

Joel 4:28

but yeah, I have one. I would say that's a odometer.

Misty 4:31

just doing the same thing. It's how many RPMs and how far did you go?

Joel 4:35

So the Greeks called the specialist, but but mad at.

Misty 4:41

what?

Joel 4:42

ISTs you had, you were, if you were a matic, then you measured distances by counting your steps and that was like 700

Misty 4:51

That's not really an odometer, I don't think.

Joel 4:53

Well,

Misty 4:54

That's just measuring distance. That's like saying a ruler's an odometer. These measuring tapes are odometers. No, they're

Joel 5:00

absolutely. They're types of odometers

Misty 5:03

well then I

Joel 5:05

an odometer is a type of ruler. I don't,

Misty 5:07

I, yeah. Oh my gosh. Which one's the bigger bucket I think. Hmm. Interesting. Odometer would have to be the bigger bucket in this case.

Joel 5:14

Yeah,

Misty 5:15

curious. I had just, I just thought odometers would measure, like have to measure going things going around Interesting. Okay, well now we need to look up the official definition of an odometer.

Joel 5:26

Oh my gosh.

Misty 5:28

Okay, so how are we gonna celebrate odometer day?

Joel 5:31

Celebrate,

Misty 5:32

Go look at our odometers.

Joel 5:34

Number one,

Misty 5:35

the odometer on your car is right now? Or your vehicle?

Joel 5:37

I have pretty darn close. It's 204,746 is what I'm gonna say. And I think that's

What Counts As An Odometer

Joel 5:45

pretty close to accurate 'cause I just had my tires changed,

Misty 5:48

Whoa. There you go.

Joel 5:49

I remember looking

Misty 5:51

27,000 something. That's all I know.

Joel 5:54

Yeah. I'm in the 204 thousands.

Misty 5:57

that's, you've driven it a long ways.

Joel 6:00

it's it's that same engine. you gotta take care of it. Get your on oil change day.

Misty 6:05

Mm-hmm.

Joel 6:06

I would get it changed other than that day, but yes. So celebrating odometer day number one. Go for a drive.

Misty 6:15

Run up your odometer. Great. Okay. Make your odometer

Joel 6:18

and, then it says post. Post, your memories of the drive on your social media.

Misty 6:24

Oh, wow.

Joel 6:26

Number two.

Misty 6:27

like it's national driving day. Okay.

Joel 6:30

Number two, learn about the odometer.

Misty 6:32

Or you just did check.

Joel 6:34

Okay, we are celebrating.

Misty 6:35

Mm-hmm.

Joel 6:36

Then. Oh, it says, start by reading up on how your odometer came to be.

Misty 6:42

Ah,

Joel 6:43

Okay. So now the third way that you can do it is to use your odometer efficiently.

Misty 6:49

what, what does that mean?

Joel 6:51

That means you keep track of your miles.

Misty 6:56

Uhhuh?

Joel 6:57

Each trip, so like every trip you take, you keep track, and then you understand the fuel efficiency

Misty 7:04

Uhhuh.

Joel 7:05

for maintaining your car and ensuring its performance.

Misty 7:09

you know, my mother still writes down her odometer reading and the gas on a little register every time she fills up her car. I ha I, I'm gonna like note to her next time that I'm there that her car records that for her.

Joel 7:25

Okay.

Misty 7:27

Like it actually calculates it

Joel 7:29

Maybe she would like to know that. Maybe she just wants to write it down.

Misty 7:33

I think she just likes to write all those details down too though.

Joel 7:36

that's a

Misty 7:37

right. Well, how are you gonna celebrate, Joel?

Joel 7:39

I am

Misty 7:40

a lot of mileage out of this one.

Joel 7:42

uh, wait a second. There's I think that I'm just gonna learn about Odometers.

Misty 7:48

Well, great. We've already done that,

Joel 7:49

Yeah. It's,

Misty 7:50

we're done with this day. Go celebrate national odometer day, however you choose. It has to do with odometers.

Joel 7:59

is a clock. An odometer like the measurement of time,

Misty 8:02

no.

Joel 8:02

like the dis Okay, just checking.

Misty 8:04

Apparently we need to define odometer before we can celebrate it.

Joel 8:08

I'm gonna go keep celebrating. Bye.

Rafael 8:25

See

Field Trip Bluffing And Teacher Lore

Rafael 8:26

you.

Joel 8:28

Hey, hey Misty. Put that pencil down.

Rafael 8:32

I used to bluff kids all the time with things like that, right? Like I remember what, um, I took a field trip while, while I was in Prague, I joined a field trip to Barcelona. I don't know what I was thinking. Barcelona with the art teacher. It was like her field trip. And there was another guy and mostly ninth graders. I mean, in retrospect, like what was I, like? I was old enough to know I. Yeah. But, but all told they were fine. But I and they're ninth graders, right? Especially ninth grade boys. And so it, um, I remember telling them like, I, I will know if you leave your room

Joel 9:09

Yeah.

Rafael 9:10

full stop. And of course, because they're ninth grade boys, they spent a good chunk of the trip trying to figure out. How I is, is it because

Misty 9:18

you would know?

Rafael 9:18

the desk has a, like, he, they were all into like, how I would know, and I just kept saying that. Like, I'll, I'll just know,

Joel 9:25

Yeah.

Rafael 9:26

I've gone on many field trips and I have, I have a foolproof method.

Joel 9:30

I had a, I had a teacher, my calculus teacher in high school, and he, so I grew up in White Bear Lake, Minnesota, and so there's lots of lakes and he was in Forest Lake on an island, his house, and he, he basically just dared us all to toilet paper, his house, but that he would know and that he would, we, there's no exit strategy. And that he would call the police if we did it. So of course we gathered to try, but never actually attempted 'cause we were so paranoid that he was gonna get it.

Rafael 10:03

I love that there was no exit

Misty 10:04

Oh my gosh.

Rafael 10:06

Like here we are.

Misty 10:07

That's funny. Oh my word.

Five Years Of Podcast Highlights

Rafael 10:10

Oh boy.

Misty 10:10

Ah. Well, welcome again to the podcast, Rafael.

Rafael 10:13

Oh, great to be here always

Misty 10:17

It's, a Monday morning and whew.

Rafael 10:20

right? It's like, Cinco de Mayo

Misty 10:22

It is. It's May the fourth. May the fourth

Joel 10:24

be with you.

Misty 10:25

Exactly.

Rafael 10:26

be with you. Ah, of course. It's

Misty 10:29

think this is the anniversary of

Rafael 10:30

not just Cinco de Mayo Eve.

Misty 10:33

I think this is the fifth anniversary of our first podcast, isn't it, Joel?

Joel 10:38

Oh, yeah, I,

Misty 10:39

I think May the

Joel 10:40

talk about, yeah.

Misty 10:41

launched.

Rafael 10:43

Oh my

Misty 10:43

Five years. Geez.

Rafael 10:46

Five years of,

Joel 10:48

And as our 1000th guest, you will receive no.

Rafael 10:52

you'll receive absolutely

Misty 10:54

Absolutely nothing. Our sincere gratitude. Oh my goodness.

Rafael 11:01

what have been some of the highlights for you all like five years into this?

Misty 11:05

We've talked to some pretty cool people. Over the years we've talked to, well, we've talked to Peter Little Doll a couple times. I'm gonna try to get him again when he, after he gets his new book out.

Joel 11:16

Mm-hmm.

Misty 11:17

we've talked to, like, we've talked to a couple different NCTM presidents, we've talked to many people who've written many different books. I mean, Pam Sada. I'm trying to think of names are like my worst thing. It's always like, I'm, sometimes I'm like, oh yeah, we talked to that person too. I think we talked to, like Rachel Lambert, we talked to Mandy Janssen once.

Joel 11:40

Yeah, we what, what always is interesting to me, I love it, is that, somehow there's some status, right? Like, oh my gosh, Peter Little doll's here, or whoever, but everybody is so open to just like, come on and chat. And it's, it feels like a real community of math educators, which is awesome.

Rafael 12:02

Yeah. Well, and you, you make people comfortable. You're great. You're great hosts. What are some of your fantasy guests like? If you could, if you could put anybody

Misty 12:13

hmm.

Rafael 12:13

in my seat right now?

Misty 12:15

Well, I'm still hoping that we can get Dr. Cheng. she's interested. I think right now she's just pretty burned out from a lot of travel and the end of the semester and stuff. So she, we definitely, we heard back from her assistant. Um, so we're looking at, you know, after her, her, I think she has a new book she's working on, so I think we're looking at after her new book comes out. So I'm, I'm excited to talk with her. I'd love to get Eli on again. Eli's always fun Eli Lure.

Joel 12:43

Mm-hmm.

Rafael 12:45

Oh, you should totally, Yeah. Get him on here.

Misty 12:47

Well, we had Christopher Danielson on before. before he

Rafael 12:50

I think that's what I was, gonna mention

Misty 12:52

Yeah. No, we're, we're definitely gonna get

Rafael 12:54

Maybe a reprise, a reprise.

Misty 12:56

to do a Definitely do that. Yeah. I don't, I don't know, like we, Joel and I spend a lot of time just thinking like, okay, who should we ask?

Joel 13:05

Mm-hmm.

Misty 13:06

Like that's, you know, our brainstorming sessions of like. We've had almost, almost everybody on the PL team, I think. Like who's wanted to, well, nobody's told, well, now they're gonna come outta the wood. We're gonna say, well, you never asked me. Oh no. Now we've done it. Well, I've

Rafael 13:21

Scratch that. Edit that

Misty 13:22

yeah, we can edit that part out. Uh, no, I, I mean we've had a lot of people just from our own PL team for sure, who have a lot of great things to share also, and we, and we've been working on getting some various speakers from the teacher conference, the last teacher conference to come on and talk. That's always, that's always exciting. I don't know. I don't, I don't like, I'm not, I'm not a fan girl around math people.

Rafael 13:47

Math superstars

Misty 13:49

Yeah.

Rafael 13:49

well. Well, that's because you are a math superstar.

Joel 13:53

right.

Misty 13:53

I mean, yeah, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna accept say that that's true, but uh, yeah. Yeah. I feel like it's this interesting.

Remote Versus In Person Work

Misty 14:01

So I'm gonna shift a little bit. We, it's this interesting week right now for us at ccp m in between are like two big strategic planning gatherings, which

Joel 14:12

Which.

Misty 14:13

the one, I'm just gonna say we were all, so we, I mean, well you were not there, but you, Joel and I were in Denver last week and it's always interesting to meet.

Joel 14:20

Mm-hmm.

Misty 14:38

no way around it.

Rafael 14:40

A hundred percent. Yeah. And I, I think that's why it was so

Misty 14:44

Oh, absolutely.

Rafael 14:45

to get together in Denver and get together in person in Chicago next week. There are certain times where you just have to do it as a virtual company, a remote company. You have to invest in bringing people together. Um, it's not the same experience. Um.

Misty 15:00

yeah, for sure,

Joel 15:01

It's true.

Misty 15:02

for sure. But

Rafael 15:04

funny you should mention about remote versus real. You know how a compu the computer, the computer, I say

Misty 15:09

computer. Good job.

Rafael 15:10

the computer, uh,

Misty 15:11

you're part

Rafael 15:12

yes. The computer showed, uh, me a picture, you know, from the past, you know, random picture. And it was a screenshot of a Zoom, uh, class meeting. From way back when during the

Misty 15:26

Wow. Way back

Rafael 15:27

was just, yeah, it was just interesting. It was, it had all the kids, it had the teacher, it had me in the corner and I don't know why I was there, but I was there. Um, and to your point, there are some things you can do remotely and there are some things you cannot, and education and, and values, clarity, uh, kicking off strategy, those things have to be. In real time.

Joel 15:53

Yeah.

Misty 15:54

Well, and, and it's interesting because I think one part of being in, in real time, what it offers is it offers time. It offers like space and time within the conversations themselves, right? Like if we get onto a meeting and then I'm like, okay, we're gonna take 15 minutes now for you all to just quietly write and do this thing and reflect before we talk. Like, what We have to 15 minutes, well, why are we all even on this call? Why didn't you tell me to do that before this call? Like, there's like, there's, we have these weird sort of reactions to that when we're not in person. It's interesting, like, I don't know, like I feel this tension of like, but, but I'm here and I should be doing something, otherwise I'd be doing something somewhere else, or I dunno,

Joel 16:38

Right. Well, and and. To me that sounds a little bit like you're equating what you used to frame meeting, then we met in a different way and now we, how important it is to think of those old ways. But it's not really the same though, is it? It's, it's like we're combining the two ideas together a little bit. 'cause when you said, let's get together and read, I don't like to do that in person either. Tell, tell me ahead of time. I'll read the thing.

Rafael 17:07

reading in public.

Joel 17:09

yeah.

Misty 17:09

when we were like, oh, let, like looking at this tension between these two values and like writing and doing some processing, like individual processing before we would get together in little, in our smaller groups and talk about things like that. Kind of like pulling that time out of a meeting.

Joel 17:25

Mm-hmm.

Misty 17:26

meeting feels like challenging. Very challenging. It's like, it's like you're using this golden time of us being all together in this virtual space to not communicate with each other in the moment. Maybe that's part of it. I dunno what it is.

Rafael 17:42

well you were there in person, Joel and Misty. You were. You were there in the remote space.

Misty 17:46

I was, I was there in person and remote.

Rafael 17:49

Oh, so you, so we have full representation

Misty 17:51

yeah.

Rafael 17:53

in person, a little bit about your

Values Tension And Decision Making

Rafael 17:55

hybrid and I was remote. What?

Joel 17:56

Yeah.

Rafael 17:57

What was your big takeaway from our values conversation?

Misty 18:03

I'm gonna let you go first, Joel,

Joel 18:05

Oh

Misty 18:06

or do you need processing time? And I should talk first.

Joel 18:08

yeah, let's, let's go ahead and just

Rafael 18:10

journal for 10

Joel 18:11

Yeah.

Misty 18:12

fast forward through the next three minutes while we all think.

Joel 18:15

I think the big takeaways were one, so. Uh, for our listeners who don't know strategic planning, like we're, we're moving forward with a plan that's gonna help CPM in the marketplace internally, all sorts of places. But I think the big takeaway was how many we don't just have like three values. Like there, there are so many values out there, and in fact, CPM, non pl, pl, everybody has different values and we need to, so that's why I think coming together was so important too about we just get to talk and find out about each other and, and what we all know. We're all. Experts on something and we bring different ideas to the table, and so now how are we gonna take that and then move it forward? That, that was kind of a big takeaway for me is just recognizing we're all have different things.

Misty 19:15

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think for me, one of the big takeaways is, 'cause some of the things we looked at is like this versus this, right? We have values that have, that have tension between them and, and I like that word tension. They're not competing, right? There're there's, there's tension, there's pull. 'cause I don't, I don't think there are very many people would say we, oh, we only have, this is the only thing we can do. We have to do this, we can't do any of that. Like I think even the people who are like, no, we need a lot more of that, and really wanted to move in one direction. Still didn't just completely disregard the other end of whatever these, this tension between these. Two values. We were looking at different values. We were looking at pairs, and, and that I think is such an interesting piece that, that sort of, it's the both and space, right? It's that, it's that, well, really it's how we navigate between these two, right? And in making decisions. And at times we're gonna need to maybe emphasize one more than the other, or we need to make sure they're balanced enough, right? That that tension isn't pulling us only in one direction and we're losing out on what? The benefit of that other piece of the value right there. Like there were, I don't, I didn't hear anyone in that group saying, well, we should, I mean, there were clearly people who thought we were not doing enough of one or the other. Right. But there were also, or doing too much of one or the other, and there were, but there were, I didn't hear anyone saying, well, we shouldn't do that one at all. I was just.

Joel 20:41

Mm-hmm.

Misty 20:42

That one's just hogwash. Right. And that's the piece I think that's so fascinating about this kind of work and, and work that anyone's doing in any kind of public sector or with students, with people like it is that tension between these two sort of end points. That there are people who think the end points are the, are the goal. And there are a lot of people who realize that somewhere in the middle is that common ground. In that space where we can try to. Hold all of it. And that's, that's challenging.

Joel 21:12

It is.

Rafael 21:13

I really kept thinking of a tug of war, right? And as we were talking about the, the tensions which felt very appropriate for CPM and, and really appropriate for the world we live in. I mean, I love that we're thinking of what folks are thinking about in our sector, in our market. I would argue in, in our world. But in a tug of war, like if one side, let's go. Right? It's, it's not good for the so-called winners, right? They all fall backwards, you know, without any grounding. and, and I do think that having those tensions exist, like not seeking resolution, but making sure that these are healthy tensions and that we are moving back and forth. According to the times, according to the chapter of CPM that we're living. Um, and, and I think that's, that will serve us well as we go into, you know, straight up strategic planning. The other thing I thought about a lot is how, how we show up, you know, broadly, but also particularly as, uh, as leaders. As leaders do we show up to. To listen and are we listening to learn? You've got, you guys have heard me say this, are we listening to learn or are we listening to respond? When we're listening to respond? I think we're, we're not appreciating the tension,

Joel 22:26

Mm-hmm.

Rafael 22:27

right? Because if I'm pulling this way, my best learning is gonna be to try to understand why folks are pulling in the other direction, right? Versus versus just getting ready to respond or.

Misty 22:38

Mm-hmm.

Rafael 22:39

Fast forward to the debate. It kind of goes back to your, your point earlier about spending some time thinking and journaling and writing, whatever that looks like for you. That pause, that's where you're, you're, you're really processing the other end of the, of the rope, literally.

Joel 22:58

Right.

Misty 22:59

Well, and I, and I'm thinking more, I, I love this, the tug of war metaphor, literally like fits in this idea and as a leader, like where, where are you on those ropes, right? Like that's an interesting place. Like, are you just like on one side and you know, whoever is on, on the other side, and you're just like, well, I'm the leader. I'm gonna pull more. And pull you all this way? Or where? Where is the leader in

Joel 23:24

The anchor position. Yeah.

Misty 23:25

in the middle who's just sort of like the judge? You know, I don't know. This is, I don't know this metaphor may fall apart at this point, but, but

Rafael 23:34

No, I, I think that's a great question. I think, I think leaders have multiple roles to play and, and depending on what part of the organization they're leading, what. Executive leadership, board leadership, different leaders have different roles to play. I think some do end up in anchor positions because they're promoting that part of the debate. Right. Or pulling in that direction because they, they see a need for that. Again, as we, as we talked about earlier, like these times require a little bit more of that doesn't mean all of that. And then I do think sometimes the leader has to step out of it and carefully, right. 'cause if you're anchoring. And you step out, like the same thing's gonna happen. They're all gonna fall over and there'll be chaos. But, but there is a role for the leader maybe to be looking at that middle place. Like, where are we, you know, instead of seeking the victory, you know, you know, that little middle of the tightrope, like, where are we? And are we, are we fluctuating appropriately and in measured ways, or are we losing our balance? Um, this, this metaphor could go for quite a

Joel 24:38

Yeah.

Misty 24:38

it could, and and I wanna also like come back to what we kind of started with, that maybe it's not the metaphor that we really want to be happening. That is pulling.

Rafael 24:49

Tell me more.

Misty 24:50

I think 'cause the metaphor with the pulling really does sort of put it as two things pitted against each other,

Rafael 24:57

Hmm.

Misty 24:57

Like, I mean, a tug of war. The objective is to. Pull the others to your side. Right? So, so the basis of the metaphor and the basis of what we're talking about is maybe what we're trying to do with these opposing, you know, para polar, polar values, right? Is to not go to one or the other, but to find some ways to navigate between the, and with, amongst the tension,

Joel 25:22

Mm-hmm. It's almost like keeping that center flag or whatever in a position like we're, we're holding that rather than,

Rafael 25:30

Well, that's fascinating because then that that really does. Point to It's not about winning. It's not about over pulling. It's about working together on either side of the rope to keep the, the organization

Misty 25:42

makes me think of those more like those like. Collaborative, you know, games we take the kids to like the ropes courses and things. Right? Well, and the, or the, like, the only way to solve it was to like, I remember there was one where there was like two, like ropes or wires or whatever, right? And you're, the objective was to get to the other end, but they, you couldn't walk on them. They're too far away. But if you took two people and they lean toward each other, then they can, 'cause they can support each other like a, like two poles on a tent stake. Right? Nobody can see. I'm making a little. Tent with my hands

Rafael 26:14

little tent figure.

Misty 26:15

they can lean toward each other and hold each other's up and then navigate the whole thing. And once you know that, then it, then it's not a, you know, like you still take some coordination and to work together. But it makes me think of like those kinds of like, you know, challenges that we would take my kids to these ropes course as always in the beginning of the year because the whole thing was to build community, was to build like, you know, they're working together and, and collaboration in that way to solve a problem.

Joel 26:42

Well, it creates a tension of pushing in rather than pulling away.

Rafael 26:48

Yeah.

Misty 26:49

Yeah,

Rafael 26:50

Well, I mean, I wish we had more examples of healthy tension.

Joel 26:53

Hmm.

Rafael 26:54

Uh,

Misty 26:55

There's not a lot of those in our life, not in our western capitalist world. Mm-hmm.

Rafael 26:59

right. We, we, we need better examples. I mean, I, I have been thinking a lot about leadership writ large.

Leadership Models And The Pendulum

Rafael 27:06

Like, what are the examples like for. You know, we're part of our, you know, theory of action is teacher leadership. Teacher leaders. And I'm just wondering as you, as you work through leadership exemplars, what's the current exemplar and is it, is it the one we need and want? Probably not. Um, and I'm not really being political to be honest. I'm just being real about what kids are seeing as leadership. Today because ultimately the teacher leader.

Misty 27:39

any arena, sports, art, music, you know, entertainment, like shopping. You know, there's just all the different, you know, areas that it feels like there's, there's a quite a polarity toward that competitive, which is, you know, I mean, you've heard my theory about the left brain. We've talked about that, right?

Rafael 28:01

Yes. Yes.

Misty 28:02

So,

Rafael 28:03

I like that. I hope, I hope we're reaching a point of balance

Misty 28:07

I think it's, I think we're, I think personally I think we're still very mid, mid swing to the, toward the left. We haven't we're, we haven't started any swing back yet, but we're, but there's momentum to it for it. There's definitely some building around because I can feel it here in here in Portland.

Rafael 28:24

yeah. No, I think so too. I think there is that, um, it's funny, my mom has this like. Theory of history, that it's all a pendulum, like just back and forth and back and forth,

Misty 28:34

a lot of things are pendulums.

Rafael 28:35

if you study, you know, history, you see a lot of evidence there. Which goes back to our lovely metaphor. It's about finding that balance point. Um, I, I've actually been pretty hopeful lately, not just about CPM and our journey toward, you know, clarifying values strategies, but also what what might happen in education. Over the next couple years. I think it's gonna be fast. I think young people are gonna be a bigger part of it than ever before. I think they, you know, the, the generations at play right now are, are not going to go quietly into the night.

Joel 29:14

Mm-hmm.

Rafael 29:15

They're, they're gonna give us their thoughts, whether they're five years old, 12 years old, 2198.

Misty 29:23

Do you know,

Rafael 29:24

I, hope so too.

Misty 29:24

I was just talking with a friend yesterday, like, 'cause we're all, we're all Gen X and he was like, we were going through, okay, we'll, we'll include you, we'll include you

Rafael 29:33

On the edge of Boomer. On the edge of Boomer,

Misty 29:35

They're not, they're not firm lines by any means. As you talked about the computer. So, I didn't realize that the, the children being born now are already in Gen Beta. Since 2024,

Rafael 29:52

yeah.

Misty 29:52

which is the Jen Beta. 'cause Jen Beta's gonna be the one that grew up with ai. And I'm like, wow.

Joel 29:59

Interesting.

Rafael 30:01

It's, I I worry about calling them Gem beta. 'cause I equate beta with like, eh,

Misty 30:08

Well, I mean, 'cause it's,

Joel 30:09

it's not there yet. Right? Like we're still building,

Misty 30:12

and now there's gonna

Rafael 30:13

I know, but yeah.

Misty 30:14

I can't remember what

Joel 30:15

but that's like the trial phase, right? Like they're trying it

Misty 30:18

no. Their beta version, I'm sure they, I'm sure they won't have to grow up with memes like that at all. From the Alphas.

Rafael 30:24

at all.

Misty 30:25

Not at all. Not at all.

Joel 30:26

Okay.

Gen Beta AI And Staying Curious

Rafael 30:27

is really interesting, right? Like the AI world, I guess what's the equivalent for us, the, the computer.

Misty 30:35

I mean, exactly. Pretty

Rafael 30:41

but it is interesting to see like the next wave that brings both hope and excitement and fear, right? Um, dystopic and utopic views. Say, I mean, if we look back, it's, it happened with the computer, it happened with, my gosh, the, the printing press. It'll be very interesting to see where, where these kids go. And then my goal as, as a, you know, a, a mature citizen is I want, I want, I don't wanna like, miss out on the exciting parts. Like, yes, I, I have concerns. I, I see some potential. Challenges, but I wanna be part of the conversation too, you know, from a perspective of wisdom and not just shut it out. Like, oh, everything, everything new, all this AI stuff is, I think, similar to what we were just talking about. AI is one of those things that needs, needs, that tension, that healthy tension of what's possible. And it is just the next iteration of technology. Sometimes we use it well, sometimes we mess up.

Misty 31:45

Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, as always, it's wonderful to ha to have this conversation with you.

Rafael 31:53

I am happy to be here. Yeah. Can't wait for the next one.

Joel 31:56

I know.

Misty 31:57

it'll probably be another couple months. We're on a two month, we're on a two month cycle, so that's where we're gonna

Rafael 32:02

right. Great.

Misty 32:04

Awesome.

Season Six Teaser And Closing

Misty 32:12

So that is all we have time for on this episode of The More Math for More People podcast. If you are interested in connecting with us on social media, find our links in the podcast description, and the music for the podcast was created by Julius h and can be found on pixa bay.com. So thank you very much, Julius. Join us in two weeks. For the next episode of more math for more people. What day will that be, Joel?

Joel 32:39

It'll be May 26th Scripps Spelling Bee Day also the first day of our new season, season six. So season six episode one, and Scripts spelling bee day. And, uh, we'll go over maybe some thoughts about the spelling bee. Um, I'm a phonic speller myself, but, um, some, maybe we'll try out some. Uh, championship word. So like the winning word in 1928 was Buman, which of course is an egg white. Um, that, uh, 13-year-old from Indiana won that word. or maybe like in 1953, sub Brett was the word winning word from a 13-year-old from Arizona, uh, which of course is a high female vocal range. So we'll go over more as we investigate scripts, spelling bee.