More Math for More People

Episode 5.13: More Conversación con Rafael and Latvian Independence Day

• Season 5 • Episode 13

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Start with a name and you get a story. We kick off with Latvian Independence Day and our colleague, Astrida Lizins, whose Latvian name, family roots, and community traditions open a window into how culture survives and thrives far from home. From Saturday language schools and summer camps to folk dance sets and dense rye bread, we explore how rituals and food build belonging—and why that matters when we think about classrooms.

That bridge takes us to timely news from California’s curriculum adoption (CPM is on the list!) and a bigger conversation about high-quality instructional materials with our executive director, Rafael del Castillo. We compare research-based claims with evidence gathered by real teachers, and we unpack a clever “shopping guide” from a recent NCTM conference: Are frameworks empowering educators to ask better questions, or inviting polished talking points that dodge substance? Our take centers teacher voice and professional judgment while acknowledging the real pressures on time, attention, and support.

Assessment and technology become the crucible where values show up. We wrestle with efficiency versus understanding, the limits of Scantron-era shortcuts, and where modern AI can help without hollowing out the work. Instead of outsourcing thinking, we propose smarter feedback loops, more student self-assessment, and classroom routines that make space for curiosity. Along the way, we reframe “grade level,” embrace heterogeneous classes as the norm, and borrow early childhood wisdom: arrive with wonder, meet the learner in front of you, and build the dance together.

If this conversation resonates, follow the show, share it with a colleague, and leave a review with one insight you’re taking back to your classroom. Your voice helps more educators find the ideas that move their teaching forward.

Send Joel and Misty a message!

The More Math for More People Podcast is produced by CPM Educational Program.
Learn more at CPM.org
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Email: cpmpodcast@cpm.org

SPEAKER_03:

You are listening to the More Math for More People podcast, an outreach CPM educational program. Boom.

SPEAKER_02:

Hey Joel.

SPEAKER_03:

Hey.

SPEAKER_02:

It's November 18th.

SPEAKER_03:

Sure is.

SPEAKER_02:

And we have a special guest. I was going to say special guest star. We have a special guest on today for our day of because it is Latvian Independence Day.

SPEAKER_03:

Correct.

SPEAKER_02:

And we happen to know someone who is Latvian.

SPEAKER_03:

I know.

SPEAKER_02:

Isn't that cool?

SPEAKER_03:

That's way cool.

SPEAKER_02:

I know. So welcome to the podcast, Estrida. Welcome. So this is Ostrita Lizens. She's gonna tell us how to say her name in Latvian in a moment, who is one of our coworkers here at CPM. Yeah. So Estrida, we were asking about your name, and you were saying that that's not how you say it in Latvian. So now we need to hear how you say it in Latvian.

SPEAKER_01:

In Latvian, my name is Estodido Lizengs.

SPEAKER_04:

Ooh. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

That's kind of cool.

SPEAKER_03:

That is cool. I like it.

SPEAKER_02:

Why is it one of those, was it was it like officially changed, or you just make it easier for all of us to say it? Kind of a thing. Sorry.

SPEAKER_01:

We make it easier for everyone. Because there are sounds that your tongues just aren't used to making. And it's absolutely yeah. It would be difficult.

SPEAKER_03:

So like on uh uh like a driver's license? Is it s is it spelled for us or spelled for Latvia?

SPEAKER_01:

Oh for the driver's license here, it's spelled in English.

unknown:

Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

Is that spelled different in Latvian then? It the only difference is is like the I has a long I, so we put like a line over it to indicate it's a long I, and the N is a soft N, so there's like a symbol to show that it's a soft N, and the S the SH has a symbol. But otherwise all the letters are the same.

SPEAKER_02:

That's cool. We were learning so much about Latvia already.

SPEAKER_03:

I know. I one of my favorite stories about working with you is you and your husband were uh driving us around Montana, I believe, and uh used the GPS in Latvian so that we could get around.

SPEAKER_02:

I have a memory of that too. When we were in I think it was when we were in Boise. And we were driving around because I remember we were like, we at one point we were like, aha, we know what the word for right is. We couldn't say it very well. I don't even get and I don't remember it now. It was years ago.

SPEAKER_03:

So is this a holiday that you celebrate?

SPEAKER_01:

Well, the community, Latvian communities celebrate them. Yes. Um, unfortunately, in Latvia it is always celebrated. Not not unfortunate, in Latvia it is always celebrated on the 18th. Uh nobody has to work, and it's celebrated on the 18th, sort of like July 4th is celebrated here.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

But for the Latvian communities here, we don't get off on the 18th. So we usually celebrate uh a weekend before, like a Saturday or Sunday before or after, depending upon our unity and the dates.

SPEAKER_04:

Awesome.

SPEAKER_01:

Nice. So so when did Latvian independence happen? 1918.

unknown:

Oh.

SPEAKER_01:

It was proclaimed as a Republic of Latvia and had regained its freedom from the German occupation. And it then in 1940, the Soviet Union occupied occupied it in World War II. But then it once uh the Iron Curtain fell in 1990, then it was restored back to the Republic of Latvia. Wow, so like 50 years under Russian control. Yeah, basically.

SPEAKER_02:

Wow. That's exciting. So what uh the were you okay? So I don't even know the answer to this question. Were you born in Latvia?

SPEAKER_01:

No.

SPEAKER_02:

I'm first generation here in America.

SPEAKER_04:

Awesome. Okay.

SPEAKER_02:

And so you grew up speaking Latvian. And I mean, I know you do a lot of Latvian culture things. Can you tell us about some of them?

SPEAKER_01:

Yes, I spoke up speaking Latvian at home. Both my parents were born in Latvia. My husband's parents also were born in Latvia. So my husband and I speak Latvian, and all three of our children speak Latvian. My growing up, I went to Latvian school on Saturdays. It was usually most of the Latvian schools are associated with a Latvian church in a city in some area. In most of the larger cities, there's a Latvian church, and then there's a Latvian school. And my children also went to Latvian school growing up. So we went to school six days a week, not five days a week. And summers were spent at Latvian camps. Um, there's I'm on the East Coast. Um I live outside of Philadelphia. There's a Latvian camp property in the Catskills that I went to as a child and then was camp director for a while, and then my children went there. And one of my biggest um passions and work with the Latvian society is folk dancing. And I've been running the Latvian folk dance group here in Philadelphia for 35 years. Wow.

SPEAKER_02:

What is Latvian folk folk dancing like?

SPEAKER_01:

Can you describe it? It's similar if you know Irish Cayley dancing. It's similar to Irish Cayley dancing, in which you have either four couples or eight couples or six couples. And it's the music is usually a polka rhythm. And so we it's more like a traditional Kaylee, like Irish Cayley, in that not similar, but similar but different.

SPEAKER_03:

Is it is that year-round or is that seasonal?

SPEAKER_01:

I give my dancers a break during the summer only with a break. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

And do you go to like competitions or like fairs, or like where do you do the dancing?

SPEAKER_01:

We don't compete. We are song festivals, song and dance festivals, Latvian song and dance festivals. And um, we participate in those together with other Latvian groups, and then we do often at a November 18th. So then a folk dance group might be performing for their community. Or we do like I we were just my folk dance group just participated in a World Heritage Fair that had dancers from all different countries performing. Nice. Nice.

SPEAKER_02:

And I mean, I I'm pretty sure I've known I know you've gone to Latvia several times since I've known you. Do you go back? Do you go to Latvia like every year or do you go very often?

SPEAKER_01:

Before we had children, my husband and I went there more often.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Once we had children, it got a little expensive to go there. We try to go every two, three years at least. Awesome. So so if we were gonna go to Latvia, where should we go? Where would you recommend us? Oh the capital city, Riga, is absolutely beautiful. Um, the capital city is more than 800 years old. The old part of the city is just amazing and beautiful, and there is so much to do and see in the city itself.

SPEAKER_02:

Is is Latvia mostly like hilly and mountains, or is it like flat and or is it really just a mix? It's really not hilly at all.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh it's relatively flat. Well, it's relatively flat. A lot once you're outside of the city country, a lot of farm. So interesting.

SPEAKER_03:

So you you uh said earlier that you went to school six days a week. What what's the philosophy behind that?

SPEAKER_01:

Well, I mean, school was on Saturdays.

SPEAKER_03:

Oh. An extra day. I got it. I just thought I I I thought it was six days versus five, and I was wondering.

SPEAKER_01:

Extra day, extra day of the week that we had to go to school.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, all my friends were at home watching cartoons on TV early in the morning.

SPEAKER_03:

No, no.

SPEAKER_01:

My mom was butting me in the car and driving me to Latvian school.

SPEAKER_03:

Good. I like your mom. I'm a proponent of more school. So that's good. So this says one of the ways to celebrate Latvia Independence Day is to eat like a local. So what would we need to do to eat like a local?

SPEAKER_01:

Well, they have some. There's a it's actually a yeast dough filled with bacon and onions called the pead's. And they're very tedious to make. So whenever you go somewhere, everybody sort of grabs onto them and eats them up quickly. Um so we have the pead, we if you're looking for a typical meal, we are more of a meat and potatoes because we are mostly farmlands. So a lot of meat potatoes with gravies would be like a typical, typical meal type of thing. But there are some the pea dog are the big ones.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay. I I'm gonna share with you what my sources say. Yeah. The sources are suspect sometimes, let's be clear. They say rye bread.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes.

SPEAKER_03:

Beet root soup.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. I don't like that, so I don't really consider it.

SPEAKER_03:

My my mom says she'd rather die than uh eat beets. So uh I don't know if that's your that's pretty rough. That's very strong feelings. Speck. I don't know what spec is.

SPEAKER_01:

It's bacon but with more fat.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay. Oh, and there's a signature smoked fish dish called butcher it. Le paja mencens.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, Leopis Mensis.

SPEAKER_03:

That's what I that's uh I like. I'm stumbling.

SPEAKER_01:

Leopai is actually a city. And Latvi. So it's the fish mensis, which is a type of fish from there. Okay. Latvians smoke a lot of fish. A lot of there's a lot of smoked fish and actually meats also very popular. The rye bread is extremely popular, but it's very different from the rye bread we eat here. It is much denser, much I want to say healthier in a sense, but it's very dense and it's not soft and puffy like our rye bread. It's nice and dense.

SPEAKER_03:

So like less less air, maybe?

SPEAKER_02:

Is that good though?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Throw some butter on it. It's still delicious. Yes, it is.

SPEAKER_03:

So you just like butter, is what you're saying.

SPEAKER_02:

That's the only meaning I eat any bread products. Dairy products. Well, do you have any special plans this year for your Independence Day?

SPEAKER_01:

Um, this Saturday there's a commemorative celebration in the Philadelphia at the Latvia Society. So we'll be going there and partaking there.

SPEAKER_02:

Awesome.

SPEAKER_01:

I'll be able to get some of those little, I'm not gonna be able to say that. Peadog. Peadogs.

SPEAKER_02:

They'll get some of those.

SPEAKER_01:

I love it. Yes. I'm gonna go ahead and make some get my mom to make some pead and bring them to our next CPM.

SPEAKER_03:

Yes.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay, can you make mine without onions though? Yeah, they're in allowed. For for vegetarians, they often make it with mushrooms. Well, no, I want the bacon. I just don't want the mushrooms. Okay. Onions. Yeah. Okay. Bacon without onions.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. Yes, sweet. I'm excited. I'm excited.

SPEAKER_03:

Me too.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast and sharing with us about Latin independence today. It's really fun, Estrita. Thanks.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Already, because you know, we saw all the good things at the beginning.

SPEAKER_03:

We don't want to miss anything.

SPEAKER_00:

And you'll and you'll fix all that later, right? Yeah, yeah, of course. Of course.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, today's Sesame Street Day. Is it really?

SPEAKER_00:

Like, I know. Like, are Sesame Street people like are we? How do I put this? Are there fewer of us?

SPEAKER_03:

I don't know.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, I think they're still on.

SPEAKER_03:

Well, I think there's fewer because it's like HBO now. So you have to have a status, you have to have a subscription. I feel like little public.

SPEAKER_00:

I feel like people little people have moved on from Sesame Street.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Maybe. What do I know? I'm what would they move on to? I don't know how many little people. I don't know, like Teletubbies for a while.

SPEAKER_02:

I think teletubbies is also I think they're on things like blues clues. I've heard of that. Oh my gosh. I don't know. I feel like we're hating ourselves, right? Clearly, everyone listening to this now is like, what?

SPEAKER_00:

What world? I'm sure there's a thing we know nothing about right now. I'm sure that little ones are listening to. Indeed. Indeed. And I'm not sure it's human.

SPEAKER_02:

How are you doing today, Raphael?

SPEAKER_00:

I'm good. I'm good. I was just like, um I got busy doing busy stuff. Yeah. And before I knew it, it's time to chat. Which I've been looking forward to all day. So ironically, I was late to the thing. I was looking forward to doing things that I'm less looking forward to. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

We had a meeting today. Appreciate the shout-out. You had us on a slide and everything. Oh, yeah, no.

SPEAKER_00:

I mean, I am on a I hope not a one-person crusade. Yeah. At the all through LinkedIn, right? Me, my mother, my 10 followers. Um But for the California conference, I was like, must listen. Nice. Nice. We'll see. Nice.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I think uh I think that there have been there are people from our company who have started listening to us recently from, you know, hearing about at like T Squared and Minneapolis and some other things. So yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

Good to know.

SPEAKER_00:

So it was really one of my first my first moments, like stepping back into CPM world. Was you know, because I saw the podcast. I was like, oh, I thought this was interesting. And it was. So awesome. Because you know, they don't they aren't all.

SPEAKER_02:

No. No. I tried listening to one the other day, or sorry, well, not name. And I was like, oh, this looks like a really cool new podcast. And and I started listening to it. And this is I don't think. So it was about like gifted and neurodiversity, right?

SPEAKER_04:

Promising.

SPEAKER_02:

And I was listening to it and I was like, they didn't filter anything. It sounds they like weren't using like regular microphones, sound like they were in like echo boxes. And I was like, I can't, I can't listen to this because there's too much hissing. And it was like, I was like, whoa, the quality is like enough for me to even engage, unfortunately, with right. Yeah. So I was I was a little sad.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, there's a softness to the technology. Soft on the ears, which I didn't realize was a thing you did. It's not just like you whisper. Right.

SPEAKER_02:

No, we were helped by many filters and algorithms and other things to make it sound good.

SPEAKER_03:

We can take out the filler words, um, to get a lot of ums and likes, you know.

SPEAKER_00:

I bet.

SPEAKER_02:

So what do you want to talk about today? What's on your mind?

SPEAKER_00:

What's on my mind? I guess, you know, with what so you know, big headline news, you know, California adoption. California lets the whole world that know that we're awesome, which we already know, uh along with many other curricula to all of us for committing to high quality materials in the classroom. So that's that's exciting. That's on my mind. It is big news. Yeah. And and I'm also thinking about the teachers that are going to be shifting through all these different options and possibilities. And I've attended a couple of conferences and and I uh was particularly excited at the NCTM conference to see this little booklet that guided the shopping, if you will. Right. It was it was your what's your uh HQ IQ, high-quality IQ. And it was framed very nicely with questions I think uh we certainly think about all the time at CTM. Interesting around, you know, what students need are, what teachers need in the classroom, current reality. It was it was pretty impressive, and I got to chat uh with two of the creators of this of this pamphlet here at CTM. And it turns out this might be a new thing. Like they're trying to do this for all teacher conferences everywhere. Maybe. I don't know. I'm I may be exaggerating, but giving people a framework for engaging around choices. That's kind of cool. Like the candy's cool, the giveaways are cool.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

But a framework for asking questions that would be even more amazing.

SPEAKER_03:

We were just talking to uh someone about um so there's a CMC publication that went out about high-quality instructional material. And I just thought it was so neat to see that not not only for students, but for teachers to engage and that states and districts and schools and teachers are having these discussions and really thinking about it. Not that we haven't before, but just I like that it's in the forefront at the moment.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, and it raises the teacher voice in the conversation, right? I like to think it's always been there, but you know, there are decision makers, there are resource managers, aka people with money, right? And and the teachers in the classroom have a lot to say uh around what's working. You know, that whole difference between research-based and evidence-based curriculum. That's that's a thing. Important. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_04:

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Yeah, I think uh it's interesting. You're talking about the, you know, the little the pamphlet and then like to guide people in asking these questions. Just thinking about like, because then there's always feeling prepared to answer these questions, right? Like, where, where is that? There's a part of it that it feels like it's shifting to great, here's this ground swell sort of like teachers, you know, they're in the authority. And then there's, but then there's the also the counter, the counter, like, oh great, well, we're just gonna create marketing materials to answer those questions again, right? Like, like it's it's a it's a back and forth that happens.

SPEAKER_00:

No, absolutely. And I think um it's funny because I resisted running with a bunch of fists full of pamphlets to our NCTM booth. And I thought, well, you know, if we're doing our due diligence, right, we should have answers to questions of this sort. Like authentic.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, right. Right.

SPEAKER_00:

Right. Rather than, oh, let's study the pamphlet and make sure we have good answers. Right. Um, I think uh that's an interesting concept. Like how do you use that in ways that empower rather than I guess disempower or or turn the interaction into something that's less authentic, less real.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I and it's an interesting like back and forth because I mean, clearly, if these are the questions that are being asked, like I want to have some kind of an idea of like, oh yeah, I want to have thought about it. Have, you know, they don't want to just blah, blah, bumble in over everything. And if I just come up like, oh yes, blah, blah, blah, blah, with my like pat answer, that's not really meeting the need of the person asking the question either. For sure. Which then makes me think about like how it's designing our own curriculum, right? We give teachers pocket questions and various things, and we want them to make them their own. We don't want them to just walk around this is what it says to do in this very mechanical way. But sometimes the mechanical piece is needed to get to the routine execution.

SPEAKER_00:

Right. Right. Yeah, it's the difference between a scripted curriculum. What way back thousands of years ago, I remember encountering scripted approaches to teaching. And it, you know, it felt silly then. I hope it still feels silly. Um but I think that one of the strengths of CPM is there's enough scaffold and enough previous experience, you know, the whole buy teachers for teachers, like people have come before you as a teacher and tried these things out. So here's like a a buffet of possibilities, sure. All within a framework of a strong curriculum. Uh because when I I went looking for CPM again thousands of years ago, I thought, okay, surely someone has figured this out or at least thought about it. I don't I don't want to start from scratch. I had a concept of transforming the classroom into something much more student-centered. And then I was like, oh, I think this is it. Right. And then not having to go it alone was sort of the key. Right. If I had retreated back into my classroom with a my box of curriculum materials, I just wouldn't have been as powerful a teacher. Right. Yeah.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

What else is what else is going on in your brain?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. I was I was even going to ask what like uh what did what stood out to you at those conferences, Nctm, SCSM?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, no, that's a that's a great question. So I would say the conferences I've attended, but this one in particular, because this this is like the conference, right? That's right. This is the conference. And it was the conference for me. This is where I discovered NCTM many, many years ago. Sure, sure. Uh I where I discovered CPN at an NCTM conference. But I I really continue to see like two ways of engaging teachers, kind of very much connected to what we've been talking about. One way is to give them band-aids, shortcut, perhaps with the best intention. But I think how it lands is, you know, you all are too busy, apparently's maybe not really fully capable of engaging with this sort of thing. And I think there's a whole other set of folks who are looking at teachers as the the expert professionals that they are. They're able to make great decisions around curriculum. They know how to incorporate the latest technology. Yes, even AI. So it's these two different approaches, you know, and whatever the intent, I think how how it lands on the teacher is oh, you see me as a respected professional, a collaborator with you, CPN. Uh or it could land as, oh, I'm I'm gonna take this shortcut, but I don't I don't feel like I know why I'm doing it. Or if it's even going to ultimately be a shortcut.

SPEAKER_03:

And and immediately when you said that, it just relates so much to a classroom. Am I gonna give you a shortcut student to like why aren't you teaching me? Give me the algorithm, that sort of thing, or am I gonna help you empower yourself to do those things?

SPEAKER_02:

So well, and I is as you were saying that I was thinking about how it's interesting, like I think there is a mix as well of at times there are things that are just that are tedious and read and repetitive, and making those efficient or easier so that you can spend your time on the things that are harder and take the thinking and brain is helpful. But determining what those are is the trick is a tricky part, right? Like if I decide that grading my tests is the redundant and tedious thing, and I so I'm gonna use multiple choice tests and put them on scantrons, that may not be the best instructional decision, but it would free up a lot of my time for doing something else, right? So there's there's an it's it's like where in that decision we decide what's the thing we don't want to have to spend time doing, right?

SPEAKER_00:

Absolutely. And and better to do that with other teachers, right? Like making that decision alone, I think, is is trickier. You might be tempted or you might have your context and are thinking about other possibilities, right? Uh your example's great, right? Oh, who wouldn't want to do that? Well, when we followed that road, the Scantron road, there were unintended consequences that I think we've learned from, right? Like that may have saved us time, sure. But it also had an impact that was not great for students. So better to have that dialogue with other teachers. Yeah. And today's version, I mean assessment is, you know, I mean what's on my mind forever. Assessment is on my mind forever. And what are we gonna do in this new point of inflection, right? Around assessment. Are we going to make it more efficient with the new technological tools like AI? And are we considering all possible impact of that? Or are there other I would argue maybe there are other like not tedious tasks that could be win-win, right? Like rather than looking at every tedious task must be technologized and all the valuable tasks, whatever that means, need to remain human-oriented. Again, whatever that means, we might be missing like the gray.

SPEAKER_04:

Wow.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, it's uh like I'm trying to think w what's coming to mind right now is I'll hear somebody may want to have a system to grade for me. Somebody else might say, No, I want to grade that because I want to see what my students are doing. Somebody else might say, I want to have a lesson plan planned for me. Somebody else might say, Hey, I want to plan that lesson because so like finding that that place, but well, you said before about not being alone and having a network and a connection, I think is key.

SPEAKER_00:

And let's not forget, we're not alone in the classroom. Right. They're 15, 20, god forbid, 35, 40, 40 uh humans in there. And that you know, I think I think this technology moment is really going to challenge us to truly turn over some things to students. And maybe some cool things, like things that we really love as teachers. Like, oh, I love doing that. I want to keep doing that. But but could students do that? Could could students do that with you? Sure. Could students do that instead of you? I mean, that's gonna be, I think, the next sort of frontier for what's possible.

SPEAKER_02:

As you're saying that, I think, I then I think about like how I'm trying to figure out how to even describe this. So every year that I'm in the class, with us in the classroom, right? I I learned from that and I and I was like, okay, now I'm gonna do this thing better, right? I'm gonna do this thing better, and I'm gonna do this next thing better. And I did do many of those things better. And I was also continually, somehow my brain did not understand that the students coming in were still sixth graders, who were really only fifth graders when they started the year, right? Like at the end of fifth grade. And so there was this weird sort of like, I learned from that experience, but then I had always had to remember and go back that the students have not learned from that experience. Wow. Yeah. Right. Like back to the beginning. So there was how can I take what I know and reset it, but do it better at the same time. I don't know why when you were saying that, it just made me think about like, you know, when we've been in the, we've been doing education for years and years and years and years. And our students, you know, they are changing, like the world is changing and it impacts their brains and different things. But they're still five, eight, fourteen, whatever, you know, they're still young brains. I haven't done this yet.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh my gosh, that is so so helpful. And, you know, if I had never gotten to the place of uh working uh with early childhood educators, I don't think I'd have so much excitement around this concept. Because I would see, you know, early childhood educators engaging students who are learning to read, yeah, who are learning their fundamental numeracy, right? And I think the key is to yes, learn as you've described, but come in as a fellow discoverer of wonder, right? And those. Early childhood teachers have much to teach us about. Right? Like we've got to bring in that that wonder. And I would I would say it has to somehow be built up authentically. Like we we have to share in that moment of like, oh, I never thought of it that way, even though you have. You have to find a way to, you know, engage with that moment of wonder and the ha, especially, you know, the program like CPM will where our whole thing is let's solve the world's problems, let's solve this problem together. And that moment of having achieved that together, right, is huge.

SPEAKER_03:

Wow. And uh I so many things in my mind, but like so the first thing is I think about when I at one point I went to a used bookstore and I tried to find the oldest book, and I found a book by John Dewey. And I was like, this is amazing. He's talking about collaboration, he's talking about make things relevant, he's talking about all those things, and we're still talking about those things. And then the other thing is being I I come from a high school environment in my teaching career. Well, those kids aren't up to grade level, but they they really are, they're at their level that they've experienced to that point. Like there's and so to your point of let's engage in a way that we can all discover together, I think is huge.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

That that grade level concept is a great one, right? Like, what does that mean? Right. Yeah, yeah. Like what what we're really saying is you're not meeting my expectations.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Right now. And and I think very often we we end up conveying that and in a way that's unhelpful, right? Oh, the teacher's disappointed in me, in us. We're not where we're supposed to be. Oh my gosh, I'm not good at math.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. And and I don't know. During during the COVID years, you know, with like what is it learning lost? Is everybody just holding still? Like, like what happened, right? And how we frame it coming out, I think makes a big difference. I think some places were like, well, we now have to go into years of remediation for everyone. Oh yay. That's exciting, right? Like versus, hey, we are where we are at. You know, we're in this together. Like, like there's just two ways to frame that. And and I'm wondering how classrooms who are taking the two different approaches are moving forward, how schools are, how districts are. Um Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

I I I taught in a school that we we didn't really have grade levels. We had all the middle schoolers together. And I mean, the kids always kind of knew what grade level they were. They had to be assigned a grade level for external competitions and things like that. Like I had to say, okay, you're competing as a seventh grade or whatever in the science fair. And it was interesting, of course, every adult that they ever encounter never asked them how old they are. They ask them what grade they're in. Right. And and some of my kids would be like, Oh, I'm a middle schooler, you know, or whatever, or they, you know, but it was this it was this lovely space where we had all the kids who were of a sixth through eighth grade age in the same classroom. And so they could f you know, flex within that really pretty dramatic developmental space for wherever they were. Some of them their brains suddenly like and and in a year suddenly caught up with their peers in in interesting ways. And it was it was really quite lovely and and challenging, right? That having to differentiate that whole breadth. But then I think about any given middle school classroom that's assigned as a X grade classroom has at least that much diversity in where the kids are in their thinking and and brain development. And yeah, it was it was always really interesting. And I always told them, I said, I I don't think of you as an e whatever, a you know, seventh grader. I think of you as Liam. And I and I give you work based on what I know and I've seen Liam can do. And I don't sometimes I go too far and sometimes I go too easy, and that's on me. But like you're helping me also give you that stuff that's at your learning space. But I also only had 25 students. That helps a lot. I couldn't have done that with 108.

SPEAKER_00:

Right. No, I mean you know, I don't I don't know if you've heard the joke that in education we really went sideways the day we accepted the second student. Like everything else at all was, you know, on on us. But but you know, what you're describing is very much like like real life stuff, right? Like the CPM classroom and its structure in my mind, one of the powerful elements is that this whole prepare for whatever, this is preparation for life and engaging with other humans, right? You do it in groups, you do it in pairs, you do it asynchronously, synchronously now. And you don't do it in batches, right? Like we treat kids like, oh, this is the seventh grade batch. Yeah, this is the eighth grade batch. And in life, that just doesn't happen, right? Like, oh, you're the you're the zero to five professional batch. And you know, there's the whole intergenerational conversation with this is where you learned about equations of lines and you know them, yes. Sorry, no promotion because your batch number is so many things.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh well, as usual, we filled up all our time. Did we really? Almost nothing. Well, we talked about very much a lot of things. I'm kidding. I'm kidding.

SPEAKER_00:

I had a lot of wondrous moments. No, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_02:

We had we talked about very my amazing things. It was more like we didn't have a topic of conversation, was more like prepared to be a little bit more than a little bit.

SPEAKER_00:

I'm dying to see what you call call this. Oh, yeah, that's always a tricky part.

SPEAKER_02:

Naming the podcast.

SPEAKER_00:

I have beaten uh who is this guy? What does he want? Like, I feel like I've got to move on. I need it to be a good one.

SPEAKER_02:

I'm not gonna be able to stop that one.

SPEAKER_03:

Start strong. Start strong.

SPEAKER_02:

Awesome. So that is all we have time for on this episode of the More Math for More People podcast. If you are interested in connecting with us on social media, find our links in the podcast description. And the music for the podcast was created by Julius H. It can be found on pixabay.com. So thank you very much, Julius. Join us in two weeks for the next episode of More Math for More People. What day will that be, Joel?

SPEAKER_03:

It'll be December 2nd. Business of Popping Corn Day. And we'll talk about the business of popping corn. So here at my house, we have a variety of popping corn opportunities, different corns, stovetop, microwave, things like that. I'd love to share my story of one of my first jobs when I worked at the movie theater and we went to popcorn. And I could tell stories of the butter, stories of how that popcorn ended up in my house oftentimes because there is so much. Looking forward to December 2nd, you know, it's a very good idea.