More Math for More People

Episode 5.11: Lots of mid-semester challenges and suggestions!

• Season 5 • Episode 11

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What if a few simple shifts could turn your math class into a place where more students talk, think, and truly learn? 

We start with our usual celebration of the "day of" by tipping our hats to Ada Lovelace. 

Then we ask the PL Team to share some of their "themes of support" that come up as they work with teachers during the beginning part of the year. The struggles and challenges that they face and some of the advice or suggestions that they share with these teachers. 

Hear about what “enough practice” really means and why demanding fluency too soon backfires. You’ll hear how three-before-me and a strong Resource Manager cut down on the teacher traffic jam, and how behavior management gets easier when tasks are collaborative, non-routine, and designed with easy entry points. Our PL specialists share practical frameworks for keeping students engaged from bell to bell, plus the reflective questions that elevate planning: Are students collaborating? Will they share work publicly? Do they know how to begin?

Then we go classroom-deep with an update from our Join Them on Their Journey teachers. Jessie talks about her experiment with daily randomized groups reduced off-task talk and amplified math voices that had been quiet for weeks, while Chi redesigned assessment to include a fast correction cycle using targeted indicators instead of immediate scores. 

If you’re ready to boost fluency without sacrificing sense-making—and build a classroom culture where every student sees themselves as a math learner—press play. Subscribe, share this with a colleague, and leave a quick review telling us which strategy you’ll try first.

Send Joel and Misty a message!

The More Math for More People Podcast is produced by CPM Educational Program.
Learn more at CPM.org
X: @cpmmath
Facebook: CPMEducationalProgram
Email: cpmpodcast@cpm.org

SPEAKER_04:

You are listening to the More Math for More People podcast, an outreach of CPM educational program. Boom.

SPEAKER_07:

Joel, how could it be the middle of October already?

SPEAKER_05:

Well, uh like I knew this seriously, aren't you? We have some names for some things, but as the the earth goes by the like we're in that position that we call October 14th.

SPEAKER_07:

Interesting.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07:

That was not the answer I was expecting. I mean, it's clearly.

SPEAKER_05:

It's crazy that it's almost the end of 2025.

SPEAKER_07:

I cannot believe this.

SPEAKER_05:

It's this we just started 2025. Like I still remember.

SPEAKER_07:

And yet it feels like we've been in 2025 forever.

SPEAKER_05:

Both of all of those things are true.

SPEAKER_07:

Exactly.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07:

So it is when you hear this podcast, October 14th. And so what is the national day for today?

SPEAKER_05:

Today is Ada Lovelace Day. Lovelace? Or Lovelace. Lovelace. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07:

I think it's Lovelace. Okay. But if you kind of say it fast, it's like Lovelace. Lovelace. But it is Lovelace. Ada Lovelace.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah. Oh, cool. Do you know about Ada?

SPEAKER_07:

I do know some things about Ada. When I was doing my uh teaching certificate in my graduate work, I took a history of math class and then I wrote my thesis paper or whatever about why there were so few women in mathematics over time, like in the you know, olden days. And and it was very interesting, like overlap, you know, conjunction between opportunity and uh I'm just gonna say probably like a little bit of misogyny perpetrated by the church. But uh there but the women who did, it was more like as opposed to really getting into that whole part, I looked at like why were the women who did become prominent or known or whatever, why did they? And it was a lot of they had some opportunity and that other women didn't, and or a or some sort of a patron or husband or somebody had access to things. So and A Lovelace was definitely Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05:

I mean you you hit right on it. It's uh today is about recognizing achievements of women in science, technology, engineering, math. Um daughter of Lord Byron, who was a famous poet. Yep. And it even says here because of that opportunity to be in a wealthy, well-known family, she was given the opportunity to be recognized for her contributions to basically creating the idea of computers.

SPEAKER_07:

And she worked with Charles Babbage, right?

SPEAKER_05:

I'm not sure about that, but I Okay, I might be wrong. You Oh I do. Her work with Babbage led to the publication of what's now recognized as the first algorithm.

SPEAKER_07:

So cool. Yeah. So why why is there any reasons on uh the 14th of October? I'm always curious, like why is it today?

SPEAKER_05:

I know why did I choose that day, right? This just says that it's it's it was designated as the second Tuesday of October. And it was just for w it like there's not a specific reason. It's just that let's go ahead and recognize it on the second Tuesday of October.

SPEAKER_07:

Oh, so it changes, so it's not always October 14th.

SPEAKER_05:

I guess so.

SPEAKER_07:

I mean it could be October 15th all the way up to October 20th.

SPEAKER_05:

Well in 2026, because again, uh I'll just kind of share as the Earth goes around the sun.

SPEAKER_07:

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_05:

And then uh it'll be October 13th next year of 2026.

SPEAKER_07:

Interesting.

SPEAKER_05:

And the twelfth the year after that.

SPEAKER_07:

Oh. Wait, so it's the second Tuesday. Oh, so we can go all the way from the eighth. This is as late as it could be, is the fourteenth. Yes. That was on Tuesday. Yes. All right. Cool. Yeah. Uh what else do we have to say? Oh, so eight, I mean, what else do you have to tell me about Ada Lovelace then?

SPEAKER_05:

Well, it's uh I I like that you brought up the about your research of the history of mathematics. That was one of my favorite classes when I was going to school too, and we talked about the rogues of math.

SPEAKER_07:

The rogues?

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah. And we had uh so there was some mathematicians that had died in duels or arguments.

SPEAKER_07:

You made them rogues because they died in duels.

SPEAKER_05:

Yes. But I remember Ada Loveless being brought up as kind of a rogue because being a woman and that doesn't make her a rogue. Yeah. Not part of the mainstream fray of mathematicians at the time.

SPEAKER_07:

So cool.

SPEAKER_05:

So how are you gonna celebrate? I was just gonna say how well I could learn to code. That's one suggestion. I'll tell you, I took a intro to programming as one of my courses as well. Probably one of the hardest classes I ever took. Very hard for me to learn coding. Um, I could brush up on my history of women in science. Sounds like that. I would just be interested to know about that. And then it says that you can attend a l Ada Lovelace event. So I guess if you look up pub quizzes, lectures, workshops near you, you could find an event on this day to celebrate with.

SPEAKER_07:

I wonder how widespread those are.

SPEAKER_05:

I don't know.

SPEAKER_07:

I mean, if there's one in every city or if there's just five in the US or one. Yeah. I don't know how how widespread those may be. It's interesting that you brought up coding. I haven't done any recent coding. I mean, we occasionally work with HTML, which feels like a bit of coding. I kind of get it, but I don't I couldn't write anything from scratch.

SPEAKER_05:

I just copy paste seems to work for me.

SPEAKER_07:

Well, yeah, and I edit, and I sometimes I'm like, oh, I can see that it needs another little tag thing here or something. But when I was in school, I took Fortran, which I can't even tell you how it works anymore, but that was that long ago. I think it's anything anybody uses anymore.

SPEAKER_05:

I was gonna say, is it in a museum? Like how would someone do it? Is it in a museum?

SPEAKER_07:

Uh I did learn basic when I was in high school too. Nice, nice. But yeah, I think I think I'm gonna I'm gonna, yeah. I'm gonna look and see if there's any Ada Lovelace uh celebrations.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah, I think I might do that too, because that would be kind of interesting.

SPEAKER_07:

Especially if there's somewhere you can have adult beverages.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah. Well, it says Pub Trivia quizzes.

SPEAKER_07:

Exactly.

SPEAKER_05:

So it's exactly seems reasonable.

SPEAKER_07:

Indeed. All right, well, everyone, enjoy your Ada Lovelace Day and uh promote more women in science.

SPEAKER_05:

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_07:

And so we asked the PL team to send us a little bit about what some of the themes of support are that they're seeing, what kinds of things they're coming across when they're working with teachers, what are some of the themes or threads or kind of trends that they're noticing as they're working with these teachers, and what are some of the things that they are offering as support? So here's a few of those from our PL team members.

SPEAKER_06:

Enjoy. My name is Nicole Gorgas. I am part of the professional learning team at CPM, and I am in Victoria, Minnesota. One of the themes of support I've noticed with the teachers I've visited recently is the concern that students are not getting enough practice. This typically leads to a conversation about procedural fluency, mixed-based practice, and assessment. A question I ask teachers is: Are you expecting too much fluency too soon? With mixed-based practice, students are revisiting concepts and procedures over time, which helps students strengthen their understanding and procedural fluency. CPM does include as much practice as the traditional blocked practice. Only it is done over several days through lessons and chapters. So that being said, it can be tricky to know when to expect proficiency. So teachers do need to refer to those suggested assessment plans and sample assessments of each chapter to determine what is appropriate to assess at a given time in the course. Okay, but let's say some of your students need a bit more practice with a skill on an upcoming assessment. There's a quick, high impact, and relatively low prep strategy I love to share with teachers. And I would argue that this strategy is a bit more engaging than giving students a bunch of practice problems to do. I encourage teachers to provide a worked example for students to analyze. The way this plays out is teachers display a problem worked out and ask students what they notice, what they wonder. The benefit of the strategy is that students can analyze not only the efficiency and accuracy of the worked out problem, but this analysis can build students' flexibility with a skill because they are analyzing someone else's work. This activity has the potential to help students exercise all three components of procedural fluency: accuracy, efficiency, and flexibility. A little practice goes a long way. Teachers love the strategy because it doesn't take a lot of time to pick out a problem, solve it before displaying it. We know students will be more procedurally fluent with a concept if they have more than one strategy to work with. So this worked example strategy has the potential to help students explore alternative strategies. Sometimes teachers still aren't content and say they still feel like some of their students just never leave the conceptual understanding stage of the process. Okay. So we know that it's important for students to build their procedural fluency from conceptual understanding. And as a teacher, it is super tempting to rush students to the standard algorithm versus letting students formalize their own procedures. I encourage these teachers I work with to have patience and also allow students to lean in to their conceptual understanding to support them and their problem solving. Students need to understand the procedures they are using, and they will need to circle back to their conceptual understanding as they learn new concepts and approach new problems. I hope this validates some teachers' feelings about fluency and practice with their own students. And hopefully, folks will try out a worked example with their students soon.

SPEAKER_03:

This is Erin Schneider from Louisville, Kentucky. And one theme I have noticed here in October is the tendency for students to call the teacher over for all their questions and forgetting that they should lean on their teammates first. So a couple of quick tips. You may have heard the phrase three before me. So encouraging your students to ask their teammates before they call the teacher. Remind the resource manager that they have the power to call the teacher over. So you don't have 32 people raising their hands and calling your name. And another nice tip to make sure that they've collaborated is when you come over to the team, don't ask the person who called you over, but ask another team member, say, hey, what's the what's the team's question? See what's going on. That's a quick way to see if they've tried to answer it amongst themselves and then try to give a prompt or a short response and then walk away and reassure them you're going to come right back.

SPEAKER_01:

Hi, my name is Adam Varns. I'm a professional learning specialist at CPM, and I'm located in Southern California. Teachers face all sorts of challenges in their classroom. But one that is the most disruptive to student learning is behavior management. When students are engaging in behaviors that distract or prevent themselves and others from learning, it is not only draining, but it takes us away from being able to facilitate the lesson we had planned. So what are some strategies for how to address behavioral challenges? First, I think it's important to engage in some reflection on our own teaching practices and ask ourselves is there anything we could do differently with our instructional practices that can assist in addressing these behavioral challenges? In my experience, having these conversations, the biggest realization that teachers have is that there's often a lack of student engagement during their lessons. When our teaching practices don't support a student-centered classroom and do not include strategies to keep students engaged, they are going to look for something to engage in. This could be their phone or peer in class. But either way, learning is not happening. So what strategies can we use? Well, I think it's important to make sure that students are engaging in active learning throughout the entire lesson. There are various ways this could look, but I think the foundational pieces are that students are collaborating with their peers and working on non-routine mathematical tasks. When problems are collaborative rather than just procedural practice, students need to rely on the joint work and ideas with their peers in order to be able to move forward. Student-centered classrooms also include opportunities for students to share their work and ideas outside of their teams using strategies like a swap meet or a gallery walk. Not only do students get to cross-pollinate with other groups, but it's an opportunity for them to stretch and move around. So as you plan your next lesson, try to make sure that students are engaged throughout the lesson. Here are some guiding questions that can help you think about next time you plan. Are students working on a collaborative task? Are there ideas and opportunities for students to share out their work? Do you have easy entry points for students to get started? By doing this, we can keep students engaged with a math task rather than their phone or off-topic conversations with a peer. Sometimes, however, engaging mathematical tasks are not enough. And we still have behavioral issues. My next recommendation is to try to identify what the root cause of the disruption is. Usually disruptive behavior is the symptom, not the cause. Sometimes students don't understand the task or the directions that were given. So rather than ask for help, they engage in off-task behaviors. Some other common causes are a lack of motivation, maybe a lack of self-math efficacy, or just a rough start to the morning. As best as you can, try to identify the root cause of the disruption rather than just punishing the behavior. My last piece of advice for behavioral management is to not be afraid to ask for support from your colleagues. Now I know from my own personal experience that struggling with behavioral management can feel like an indictment on you as a teacher. Like you can't handle the students in your classroom. But the truth is, all teachers have areas of improvement. And if behavioral management is one of yours, it is better to seek advice from your colleagues than to continue in a challenging environment. Especially if you are a new teacher. Talk to those veteran teachers to see what behavioral management strategies have worked for them and find some practices that work for your classroom. So to summarize some advice for behavioral management, make sure that your lessons are engaging students throughout the entire lesson. Try to identify what the cause of the behavior is and address that. And lastly, don't be afraid to seek the advice of colleagues.

SPEAKER_02:

Hello, my name is Tracy Tamaj, and I am a professional learning specialist. And I am here to share a common challenge that teachers report to me when implementing CPM in their classrooms in their first year. And that is how do I make my study teams more effective? So in the summer learning events, many teachers are very excited about team roles. And in the hustle and bustle of the beginning of the year and all of the logistics of new curriculum, oftentimes when I'm visiting teachers after those summer learning events, the team roles have dropped off. And so typically we kind of look back at those and kind of revisit the ideas behind how they help make our study teams more effective and how we can kind of revamp them and get them going again in the classroom. And so a tip that I sometimes give teachers or an idea that I have is kind of sitting down and purposefully setting aside five to 10 minutes in the planning of the next day's lesson on what do you want the responsibilities of each team member to be during the lesson? So whether, you know, we have a couple different iterations of team roles, but what really do you want each student to be responsible for to make the study team effective? And there's different vibes here. So different teachers are going to kind of gravitate towards different ways to make sense of those team roles. So like there's the lens of like the questions, like the one one student is in charge of the why, and one student is in charge of the how, and one student is in charge of the what. And then there's other teachers who kind of gravitate more towards what's the job that you want each student doing every day. And so kind of the first step is like wrapping your own mind around what do you want those roles to look like on a day-to-day basis? And what what what are the jobs that you can assign students or the roles that you can assign students to make them feel like they have a responsibility, a clear responsibility in that team. And then the next step is to make sure that those roles and responsibilities that you've planned for are clearly communicated to the students so that they can help hold each other and you accountable to the team roles. So I always suggest that there has to be a place in the classroom where there's a general display of those responsibilities. So whether that's an anchor chart or a designated spot in the classroom that kind of explains, you know, to anybody walking through the room, like what are each of these roles and what are they supposed to be doing? And then I also encourage teachers, once you've planned at your next day's lesson and you have an idea, like let's say you're making a poster or something like that. That's a that's a great way that you can say, I want this student to be in charge of making sure we have materials. I want this student to be in charge of making sure everybody's contributing. I want this person to be in charge of making sure that we're using color and that the names are on the poster or whatever, whatever it might be. And having that clearly displayed somewhere in the classroom for the day, whether it's on a whiteboard or an agenda or something like that, so that the students can can refer back to it and you can kind of all help hold each other accountable. That's those are some of my tips and tricks of just like getting the team roles going again in the classroom and making enough structure that everybody understands how you can use them on a day-by-day basis. And it also kind of can help recommit to the idea of the team roles. So hopefully if you are in your first year of implementation, you can take some of those tips and tricks back into your classroom.

SPEAKER_07:

We have another Join Them on Their Journey update from Jesse Todd in Astoria, Oregon, and Chilo in Alameda, California. Joy.

SPEAKER_00:

Hey guys, it's Jesse coming to you from Astoria, Oregon again. I hope everybody out there listening is doing well. We here in Oregon are in our sixth week of school. So it is definitely feeling like the middle of October right now. Um, the weather's still been beautiful, which is great, and the rain has not hit us yet. I think it's actually supposed to start tomorrow, but we won't talk about that. My kids are definitely uh in the need for a three-day weekend, and we have professional development tomorrow. So they get that they were very excited today. I'm excited to give you guys an update about how things are going overall. I would say this year has been pretty good. I'm feeling good. The kids are doing well. We haven't had any major, oh my gosh, but one of my big goals was to try to randomize my groups every single day. And interestingly enough, I thought that the juniors and seniors would be the group that I really honed in on and started with. And I did for like the first, you know, week or so, but then it was very evident that it was the freshman class of integrated one that really needed, really needed it. Um we went through the first like uh three weeks of school, and I kind of let them choose where they wanted to sit, choose who they to see, you know, who they would, who they would sit with and what sort of good choices we would make. And it turns out that they did not make very good choices. And so I was kind of after their first assessment came back, I was like, you know what, we need to shake some things up. And so I decided that it was time to do random groups every single day. And so we've been doing that now for about three and a half weeks or so. And it has surprisingly been going really well. So I'm doing it with two periods right now. I figured it was better to start small and then work my way out. Though now that I think about it, I probably should have just done all my classes all at once, but because now we're in routines and so I think I'll get more resistance. So that might have been a mistake I made. But I am happy to report that things are going pretty smoothly with the freshmen. They are an integrated one. They are definitely grumbling about it every day, like, oh, we have to do this again. Like, yeah, we have to do it every day. And but I will say that the amount of math talk has increased a lot. Like, they are discussing things, they are talking to each other, um, they are working together. Um, so that has been really cool to see. Just the amount of off-task talk has really decreased a lot, which is kind of cool. I've also had some really neat moments where students are sharing with the large group as a class that would never that never said a word the first like three weeks. And now they're like, oh my gosh, I get this. It's been, it's been really cool to see not just those those kids that all of a sudden are seeing themselves as math learners, but also the students that are like they're seeing themselves as math learners, but the community as a whole is just so much more positive. Like everybody is accepting of everybody and everybody's ideas in the room. And so that that has been really cool to see. And I feel like that's a a positive consequence that I didn't really see coming. Yes, they're getting more work done. Yes, they're they're making more connections and things, which is really great. But I feel like my overall classroom community has really become very positive. And so that's been really neat to see. I will say I also tried this with my sophomores in Extended Algebra, which is the group that's doing the second half of Integrated One right now. And the results have have not been as profound. I definitely have realized that I need to go back and reteach some group expectations and what my expectations are with students that that are in that class. It's definitely been more of a struggle to get them to engage when they're working with other people. So that is gonna be my focus here for the next couple of weeks with them. But the thing that is kind of cool is that, you know, we started this book study on building thinking classrooms with the department. And today we actually discussed chapter one. We're doing it, we discuss a chapter every other week. So one week we spend PLC reading, and the second, the next week we discuss the chapter. So today we were discussing chapter one, which is about the types of tasks that you use in the classroom. And one of the things that really stuck out to me when I read it was this idea of starting class with three to four non-curricular thinking activities. And I I have always been a big proponent of like, I want to give them a doc talk, I want to give them a um a number talk or a which one doesn't belong or something like that at the beginning of every period. But I never really like I I love those tasks because kids can access them no matter where they're at, right? They're they can, you know, anybody can do them. And so they start class off on a positive note. They start with something that they for sure can do. And that has always been like a positive thing. But I was never, I was always kind of like, if I didn't have time to to find one or something, I was like, oh, it's no big deal. But it's actually it's really a big deal. And so we we talked about that as a as a group today, a little bit as a department. And I do think I was I was kind of like, oh, anecdotally, yeah, I definitely notice a difference in my kids on the days where we have a thinking task that's non-curricular to start the period versus just jumping in and going over homework or something. And the interesting thing is that they're like anecdotally, I noticed a difference in my kids, but this is actually saying that research shows that that that is a good thing to do too. So I am going to increase those activities with some of my classes that maybe I wasn't doing that as frequently with. I was always doing it with advanced topics, I was always doing it with extended algebra, but when it comes to like integrated one and uh precalculus, I haven't really been starting class with a non-curricular task, and I'm gonna try it and see what happens when I do it. So, anyway, things here are good, and I appreciate you guys listening and coming along on this journey with me as I try to implement some new things and make some changes. So, like I said, I hope everybody's doing good and I'm out. We'll talk to you later.

SPEAKER_08:

Hello, it's G again coming to you from Alameda, California. It's been a pretty busy week. We were trying to prepare for our end of chapter assessment, and as a result, we spend a whole week, all three days, on the preparation and the corrections on that test. So the breakdown of the week goes like this. On day one, we had our review packets, and we spend a period we spend a class going over some of the problems and answering questions that students might have. I circulated the room trying to see progress and checking for understanding. And you know, overall looks pretty good. Then we have our tests on day two. Pretty typical, right? Everybody in the seat, voice level zero, no bathroom passed, all that screwed. Then on day three, so after that, I took the test and went and marked down what are some problems they need to revisit. So I'm not grading it yet, and I'm only giving them like you know indicators that they Got this question perfectly, or they got this question mostly, and and they what you know they can change a little bit from a great answer to a perfect answer. Um, and then uh there's also indicator that you're on the right track, but you know, execution is missing something, and then there's also an indicator of this is completely off track, should we visit this problem? So that happens on day two, and then day three, we did a quick review session, which is going over some of the things I see underlines all the people's everyone's tests. I didn't show them any example of what we're talking about on any of the review like quick reviews that we did, because I have them take down notes as we're going over it, and I told them that they can use that on their correction. So that little half sheets of notes was kinda like a legend for them to revisit their test and go over some of the things I had marked. So for example, a student is gonna raise their hand and ask why is this one on the right path but not correct, then I would revert them to a certain session of the half sheets so that they have to think deeper about what they have shown or what kind of mastery they have shown. And I know it was interesting because it's you know, last year we did a full-on retake, so we had our tests, and they would take their tests back, and then they would have a chance to do a retake in two weeks, which is another full class day. So this year we do it back-to-back like that, just for a quicker turnaround and for a lot of reasons. And what we saw was it's a middling result. So we have students who came back ready for the correction and knew exactly what we're talking about when I, you know, given the indicators. There are students who, you know, didn't make any corrections. There are a lot of frustration because I wouldn't tell them what was wrong with it. Also, I wouldn't tell them if they have fixed a mistake or not. So it's interesting to see that like, you know, once I increase the connected demand of knowing if your math is correct. Because I always tell them that math is one subject where you can know for sure that you're correct or you might not be. Because math is math. And sometimes even I make mistakes. So this is something that's something that we want to cultivate in our students, is this ability to assess their answers. Then there's a couple students who brought up material materials that they that was not allowed to be used on the test, during the test. And I think in years past I would interpret that as cheating. Um my colleague reframed that with me. On the topic of cheating, I don't think any student have bad intention. Like, I said no one is born wanting to lie and cheat their way through life. I think cheating is a manifestation of the fear of not performing well. And I think as educators, we need to rethink about the restorative practices that goes around academic integrity or the issues of that of academic integrity. I think oftentimes we come from a punishment or disciplinary angle, but I think that it would be a more useful experience, um more of a learning moment for a student if you show them that you understand that they do this because they're scared. And here's how we can do it, so that they won't be scared for the next test. Those are ongoing conversations, so maybe I'll bring that back next time. But that's all I have for now. Have a good day.

SPEAKER_07:

So that is all we have time for on this episode of the More Math for More People podcast. If you are interested in connecting with us on social media, find our links in the podcast description. And the music for the podcast was created by Julius H. and can be found on pixabay.com. So thank you very much, Julius. Join us in two weeks for the next episode of More Math for More People. What day will that be, Joel?

SPEAKER_05:

It'll be October 28th, National Chocolate Day. And so we'll trade some stories about chocolate, the history behind chocolate, why we need a special day to celebrate chocolate. Personally, I'm more of a milk chocolate person. Dark chocolate. I don't know if it's an allergy or not, but I always think that it doesn't quite feel right. I remember sneaking into the pantry when I was a kid and finding a huge, big, huge chocolate bar, and opening it up, and discovering for the first time what baker's chocolate tastes like. And so maybe I'll tell that story as well. But join us on over 28.