More Math for More People
CPM Educational Program is a non-profit publisher of math textbooks for grades 6-12. As part of its mission, CPM provides a multitude of professional learning opportunities for math educators. The More Math for More People podcast is part of that outreach and mission. Published biweekly, the hosts, Joel Miller and Misty Nikula, discuss the CPM curriculum, trends in math education and share strategies to shift instructional practices to create a more inclusive and student-centered classroom. They also highlight upcoming CPM professional learning opportunities and have conversations with math educators about how they do what they do. We hope that you find the podcast informative, engaging and fun. Intro music credit: JuliusH from pixabay.com.
More Math for More People
Episode 4.14: It's Pizza with the Works Day and we talk to Dr. Peter Liljedahl!
First! Early Bird Deadline for the 2025 CPM Teacher Conference ends soon! Prices go up on November 15, 2024 - so don't miss out and have to pay more - sign up now!
Ever wondered why anchovies are the perpetual outcasts of the pizza world? Join us as we celebrate National Pizza with the Works Except Anchovies Day with a lively discussion on pizza toppings. We boldly explore the sweet and spicy dance of pineapple and jalapeños, and ponder the sauce spectrum from classic marinara to zesty pesto. We'll tackle the eternal question of cheese quantity and share colorful pizza stories that are sure to leave you hungry for more.
This episode, we welcome back Dr. Peter Liljedahl, sharing his global adventures in building thinking classroom and his insights into lesson closure and student learning retention. We discuss the power of effective note-making strategies, using techniques like gallery walks and the teacher-scribe method to transform classroom dynamics. Learn about a groundbreaking four-quadrant template that's changing the game for student engagement.
If you'd like to hear our first conversation with Peter Liljedahl - tune into
Episode 2.17,
Episode 2.18, and
Episode 2.19.
To connect with Peter Liljedahl on X: @pgliljedahl
Send Joel and Misty a message!
The More Math for More People Podcast is produced by CPM Educational Program.
Learn more at CPM.org
X: @cpmmath
Facebook: CPMEducationalProgram
Email: cpmpodcast@cpm.org
You are listening to the More Math for More People podcast. An outreach of CPM educational program Boom. An outreach of CPM Educational Program Boom.
Speaker 2:Hello, hello, hello. It's Misty here and I have an announcement, announcements, announcements Before we get started with today's podcast. So this podcast launches on November 12th and that means that there are only two days left after today for you to register for the 2025 CPM Teacher Conference. At the early bird rates, you will save $35 to $55, depending on what you're registering for for the main conference If you register by the end of the day, november 14th. On November 15th, the prices go up. So if you are wanting to come to the teacher conference and you are wanting to save some money and of course you're wanting to save some money please go in and get yourself registered by the end of the business day on November 14th, because those prices will go up and you don't want to miss out.
Speaker 2:There's so many amazing things planned for the teacher conference. You can sign up for the main conference. You can also add on a pre-conference. We have seven different pre-conference options to choose from, including building thinking classrooms, equity, inclusion, coaching, leadership, multilingual learners and the California math framework be included. Please get signed up by the 14th so that you can get the early bird rates and not have to pay more to come and see all of your amazing teacher friends and CPM professional learning team members presenting at the 2025 CPM Teacher Conference in San Diego. It's the last weekend of February. We'll see you there. Okay, here we are. It is November 12th 2024. What is the national day today?
Speaker 1:Well, today is it's a mouthful, figuratively and literally, national Pizza with the Works Except Anchovies Day.
Speaker 2:Wow, national Pizza with the works, except anchovies.
Speaker 1:That's correct?
Speaker 2:Oh, okay, that's interesting. I know it's very curious that they.
Speaker 1:They've singled out one ingredient.
Speaker 2:Okay, I'm going to have to say I've never had a pizza with anchovies. Uh-huh, I mean, I've had anchovies, just not on pizza Gotcha, and I don't think that I just walked into a pizza place around here and said give me a pizza with the works.
Speaker 1:Anchovies would be one of those works. Then anchovies would be included.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Like, I feel like that would. I'm not even sure that that would be included.
Speaker 1:I mean I get some places. It would be included for sure. I think we have a place here that includes clams even, and anchovies.
Speaker 2:Oh, clams and anchovies. I bet there's On their pizza with the works.
Speaker 1:Yes, with the whole kit and caboodle.
Speaker 2:Okay, have you ever walked in anywhere and just said give me the works?
Speaker 4:No, Me neither I never, have.
Speaker 2:I kind of want to now.
Speaker 1:I know.
Speaker 2:I don't know why, but I would have to like. First I'd have to suss out that that wasn't going to give me something I didn't want.
Speaker 1:It is a phrase. I've heard the phrase.
Speaker 2:I have heard it too. I'm not sure I've ever heard it in person. I probably just heard it like on TV shows or other people saying it or something. But yeah, the works.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I feel like with the works applies more to like hot dogs, like more to like hot dogs, like the condiments I guess are like a hot dog with the works are top toppings on a pizza condiments. Could you think of them as that way?
Speaker 2:yeah, I mean yeah, yeah, they're the toppings. It's toppings on a hot dog, toppings on pizza yeah okay, interesting, what's your, what's your favorite pizza topping? Then?
Speaker 1:well, it's what kind of changes in the mood. I do like pineapple on my pizza, but I, when I do pineapple, I do like a jalapeno. I like the sweet with the spicy sort of thing all right, but lately my go-to has been portobello mushroom calmada ricotta cheese.
Speaker 2:And that's it.
Speaker 1:Well, and it comes with the red sauce and the Okay and the yeah. A basic pizza to me is the marinara and the I guess it's. What kind of cheese is that Mozzarella?
Speaker 2:Mozzarella cheese usually. Yeah, yeah, oh. So ricotta and mozzarella cheese. Yes, got it. I have learned that I prefer pizzas that have either a pesto sauce instead of the marinara, or like a oil and basil or some other kind of like a sauce instead of the marinara, because marinara like, sometimes the marinara is really good and sometimes I just don't like it. There's too much Like I'm not into a real saucy pizza See I like a saucy pizza. I like a saucy pizza. I like cheesy pizza.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's a pizza here where I have to go. I have to order it light on the cheese because otherwise it's too much cheese for me.
Speaker 2:I can't even understand how that's possible. I mean to be too much cheese for you does not seem possible.
Speaker 1:Next time we're in Salt Lake, we're ordering the Pie Pizzeria Excellent.
Speaker 2:It's coming. Yeah, I'm fond of pizzas that have two meats, and mushrooms and black olives. The two meats could be pepperonis and sausage, or ham and sausage, or ground beef and pepperonis. I mean that's flexible, but I do like for both the olives. Yeah, I like olives I'm.
Speaker 1:I very rarely get meat on the pizza for teaching yeah yeah, I could.
Speaker 2:I could also go with a not meat pizza. I got a pizza last weekend. It had mushrooms and olives, I think, and then it had, but it had artich.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:And then like the pesto sauce or whatever. And then I added on, like sausage or something like that. That's cool, it's pretty delicious.
Speaker 1:We're getting close to this time of year and I think you can only buy it at Kroger's stores is what I saw. But it's a DiGiorno pizza, so it's in the frozen section and DiGiorno gave me no money to say this. I just want to make that clear. But they sell a Thanksgiving pizza and so it comes with turkey and stuffing and cranberry and all that stuff.
Speaker 2:Wow, on the pizza, does it have like the mashed potatoes on it too?
Speaker 1:I think it's got everything and I really want to try one, but they sold out last year so I couldn't get one, so I got to get it in a store and try to get that, but it would not have anchovies for sure.
Speaker 2:It definitely would not have anchovies. It would be a different kind of pizza with the works.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 3:I give you a different set of works.
Speaker 2:They would not give you pizza with the Thanksgiving works.
Speaker 1:That could be the menu. Here's our works. It could be the menu. I hope there's no pie on it. Here's our works.
Speaker 4:So for you to know, what you're getting into.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, because there's some things that you wouldn't. I just think you wouldn't want to put all the toppings in any kind of pizza place. Yeah, who knows when I was in Calgary last week, they have a really, really good pizza place. It makes more, I would say, like wonky pizzas.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Because, like I asked them, I was like, oh, can I change the sauce? And then she said, oh, there's not really a sauce on it because it has the balsamic drizzle and they have like balsamic drizzle or they have like a honey over there for cheese pizza yes so good, very, very delicious. There's a place in If you're in Calgary, go to Una.
Speaker 1:In Fort Collins, colorado, and honey is a condiment on the table to put on the crust or put on the oatmeal. For sure, it's so good yeah.
Speaker 2:This was really good, because it was like they drizzled it on while it was still baking.
Speaker 3:So it was kind of with the caramelized.
Speaker 2:It was really good, and the gluten-free pizza was big enough to be two or three meals for me, so it was awesome, even better, even better, all right. So how are you going to celebrate today, joel?
Speaker 1:I'm going to eat pizza. I eat pizza quite often.
Speaker 2:That's the easy one.
Speaker 1:And actually I always keep a tin of something in the cupboard and I know for a fact I got a tin of sardines or anchovies in the cupboard.
Speaker 2:I don't know how sardine sounds closer.
Speaker 1:Well, either I actually have both they Well, either I actually have both. And I got a can of anchovies. I'll just put it on the pizza. That'll be delicious.
Speaker 2:So you're going to be a rebel in that way?
Speaker 1:That's right.
Speaker 2:Celebrate the day, but create anchovies.
Speaker 1:It's very exclusive, except anchovies Boo.
Speaker 2:You don't like the exclusion.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I want to celebrate with the anchovies In your face. I got it, except anchovies day. How about you? How are you guys doing?
Speaker 2:I find it to be a good reason to have pizza. So sure I'm going to join in on a pizza with a lot of stuff on it. Probably not the works per se, but a lot of stuff.
Speaker 1:Sounds good to me.
Speaker 2:All right, enjoy your pizza. Enjoy, all right, we have a very special podcast for you today. It's going to be the first of at least two parts of a conversation that we have with Dr Peter Lillidal. If you don't know who Dr Peter Lillidal is, then I'm going to tell you right now. He is a professor of mathematics education at Simon Fraser University in Vancouver, canada, and he has co-authored and authored numerous books, book chapters and journal articles on topics related to teaching and learning. He's a former high school mathematics teacher and his research is about how we can create thinking classrooms, how we can get kids to be thinking in the classroom, and his most famous book, I think, is Building Thinking Classrooms, which came out in 2020. And he has put out a couple other books since then. The most recent one was in March of this year. That is about mathematical tasks for the thinking classroom. Focusing on it, he also does presentations and workshops. We happened to catch him in the middle of his world tour this year. He was in Europe at the time You'll hear more about that and we had a really lovely conversation with Peter about his work and about what he's doing and what is coming up and all the various things that he's been thinking about.
Speaker 2:Peter will be at the CPM Teacher Conference in February doing a couple of workshops for us, so you'll also get to hear about that and if you happen to Google Peter, you'll find that he has an interesting past. We also talked with Peter a couple years ago. So if you want to go back and check on our first conversation with Peter, there's a link for that in the podcast description. So here you go, part one of our conversation with Dr Peter Lillidal. Cheers. All right, so we're really excited today to have Peter Lillidal back with us again. We had Peter two years ago on the podcast, just about this time.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's been a long time yeah.
Speaker 2:It's been a while and we're excited to have him back here today. So welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 3:Welcome. I'm happy to be here. Thanks for having me back.
Speaker 2:So, as we were getting started to record this, you were telling us you've been traveling all over the place.
Speaker 3:That's axiomatic with me by now. So I'm currently in a place called Roskilde, which is about half an hour outside of Copenhagen. Just got here today. I've spent the last week at the other end of Denmark, in Aalborg and Aalhus, doing workshops with teachers, and I got four days of workshops here before flying off to Amsterdam. Wow, so I'm in Europe for five weeks during Building Thinking Classroom Workshops.
Speaker 1:This is my European tour Effectful. I'm in Europe for five weeks during Building Thinking Classroom Workshops. This is my European tour, wow.
Speaker 3:This is my third European tour of the year.
Speaker 1:Okay, oh my goodness, yeah, do you have a t-shirt that checks off the cities.
Speaker 2:They say how many days a year do you spend at your actual home?
Speaker 3:So last, year it was 30. This year it should be. It'll be less than that, it'll be about 25. My wife likes to say we visit our home, yeah, yeah. So we'll come back from Europe, like the week and the week before I was in Denmark, we were in Japan for eight days. So we'll come back from Europe in November, at some point at the end of November and We'll have 16 hours at home before jetting off to Hawaii for three weeks.
Speaker 2:Is that vacation? I hope.
Speaker 3:One of the weeks is vacation. I'm doing a lot of classroom teaching there in.
Speaker 1:December.
Speaker 3:And then all our kids and so on are joining us there for five days Wonderful. Just to have sort of a family, a sort of family get together. Our daughter just moved to New Zealand so she's going to join us there, so it's a good it's a good middle ground for us to all meet. Yeah, I.
Speaker 1:I did my some of my student teaching on Oahu.
Speaker 3:Oh, you did which. Which complex area.
Speaker 1:It was. It was the Kamehameha schools.
Speaker 3:Okay.
Speaker 1:So, nice.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I love being in classrooms in Hawaii. The diversity in those spaces is just amazing, and the kids in Hawaii are the only ones who can pronounce my last name. Well, not the only ones, but they're really good at it.
Speaker 2:Wow, wow. That's interesting In all of this traveling and doing the work with building classrooms. One of the things we wanted to get a little update from you on what are some of your areas of new research. But I'm wondering, like, how do you have time to even do new research, right?
Speaker 3:Well, it's a little different than it was the original 15 years of research. Now it's much more. I'm in the classroom, so much right Like. I've done 176 lessons in the last two years K-12, all over the world and so I get to go in on a regular basis and test new ideas firsthand, and all of them are with groups of teachers observing anywhere from 10 to 70 teachers observing these lessons and then they get to go away and try these things and then report back. So it's, if anything, it's almost easier to do that sort of boots on the ground, rapid prototyping of things. What I don't have time for is the deep data collection on certain things, but certainly on trying stuff out. It's really efficient these days, so yeah, so what have I been working on?
Speaker 2:What are some things you've been implementing there or trying?
Speaker 3:out. Well, the big thing I've been working on since the Orange Book came out was I've been really focused on closing the lesson right. Those three practices that happen at the end of the closing of the lesson the consolidation, the meaningful notes and the check your understanding questions. And for those of you who are reading along at home, that's chapter 10, 11, and 7. And just how important closing the lesson is right, the teachers who were implementing those practices and implementing them well were seeing better performance results from students and just better sort of conversion from collective knowing and doing to individual knowing and doing. The students had better retention of content and stuff like this.
Speaker 3:Those practices are in the original research. Like we had statistically really good improvements, but we also had a lot of kids opting out, right, like there was a lot of kids opting out of the notes and a lot of kids opting out of the check your understanding questions. And you know kids make bad choices. I don't know if you know that, but kids make bad choices sometimes. Yeah, they make choices that are counter to their best self-interest, right, right, like it's in their best interest to sit down and create these notes and it's in their best interest to sit down and do these, check your understanding questions. But they don't always choose wisely and the fact that kids make bad choices doesn't actually absolve us of the responsibility of doing responsibility of doing so.
Speaker 3:Ever since the orange book has been out, I've been working really hard at trying to find ways to adjust those practices in such a way that less kids opt out and and that's what I've been working on and we've and having huge success around that, like getting close to 100 participation now in meaningful notes and check your understanding questions just by making a couple of significant changes to the way we implement those practices. And they're all detailed in the green book that just came out in March, so it's really rewarding and playing with that. I'm still playing with that. That's sort of a big thrust of my workshops now when I'm out there doing a workshop.
Speaker 3:That's one of the things I really lean into. Five years ago my workshop was hey, let me introduce you to vertical surfaces or random groups Totally. People kind of show up for a workshop. They kind of know that already.
Speaker 3:So, now I lean much more into that, the importance of closing that lesson, because just how important it is and I think this is true for everybody, it doesn't matter if you're a BTZ teacher or not how you close a lesson is going to have an impact on on how you convert all that meaning making into meaning made and retained learning. Right it's. It's becoming more and like. To me it's becoming more and more important. I guess it's always been important, but I mean, I'm becoming clear on how important it is.
Speaker 2:Yeah we've we've been talking in cpm, we've been talking about lesson closure as long as I've been working with it right and and how to do it and how to find that time, and that it's not me as the teacher standing up at the board going here's what you learned today.
Speaker 3:That's fair, because I can't give you my meaning right, I have exactly, exactly the best I can do is create a meaning making space and then help you organize structure and formalize our all that thinking you've been doing and it's, we dedicate a third of the lesson to it, like I think one of the challenges that teachers often run into is that they have a lesson plan and then what's left is the closing, and that's not how we approach this anymore. The way we approach this now is the last third is the closing, and we're going to close whatever we got through close whatever we got through Right so rather than being focused on.
Speaker 3:we got to get through all of this stuff, and if that pushes into the closing space, no, it's, that just means we got through less stuff today, but it's that closing is vital.
Speaker 2:Right, well, and that closing then makes the stuff that you got through more meaningful. Yeah, right, then getting through a little bit more, but not having the closing, and then having to start where you would have left off if you'd have done more closing in the first place.
Speaker 3:Right, because that's what we're finding. If we don't close properly. What happens is the kids walk out of the room and their ideas just kind of float away Hoot, yeah, yep, and then they come back the next day and it's like nope, we're going to start all over again.
Speaker 1:I was going to say how confusing for the kids, even if you try and close the next day.
Speaker 3:Oh no, that doesn't work we learned that Every lesson has to have a closing right, even if you didn't finish everything you wanted to in that lesson it still needs to have a closing.
Speaker 2:So, without giving away too much maybe, what are some of the tweaks that you've made to get those students more engaged?
Speaker 3:And I'm just curious Well, one of the big changes is really differentiating the types of consolidations that we do right, and understanding that. So in the Orange Book, I talked about two different or three different types of closings. Right, there is or consolidation sorry, three different types of consolidation. So there was just a conversation. There was what we call teacher-scribe, which is where I'm going to put some new questions on the board and you're going to talk me through it and I'm going to be the scribe, so we're going to do them together, and the third one was a gallery walk.
Speaker 3:And all of these things have a lot of things in common, right Like we work from the bottom up, in the sense that we're starting with really foundational ideas and then entering into more complex territory. The kids are on their sheet the whole time. We do a lot of turn it, but one of the things that we've really learned is like when is each of these more appropriate than the other? So, when we have a divergent task so a divergent task is a task where I gave the task to the students and every group did it differently, so it diverged Then a gallery walk is best because it allows us to look at the different ways that students solve the problem and to sort of mobilize that knowledge.
Speaker 3:When we have a convergent task, meaning that every group kind of did it the same way, then we do the teacher-scribe move, and again, that's not a lecture, it's kind of like a. The same way, then we do the the teacher scribe move, and again, that's not a lecture, it's really. It's kind of like a number talk on steroids, right, but it's, it's really. It's I'm writing what they're saying, and that just works way better. Gallery walks do not work when you have a convergent task, because it's boring.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I've looked at it once now.
Speaker 3:I've looked at it again yeah and you ask the kids, what was this group thinking? And they're like, duh, same thing. We were that I was thinking. Yeah, Right, and the reality is most of math is convergent, right, Unless you're teaching a problem-solving course. Most of math is convergent Because we want the kids to have similar ways of thinking or routines, and so on and so forth. When there is divergence, great Right. And we can't always predict that there's going to be convergence or divergence, Like there's been lessons where I've gone in I'm like this is going to converge and then it's like no it diverged and things like that.
Speaker 3:And it all depends on just how open you leave them to pursue the task and how much you want them to use certain routines and so on. But nonetheless that was one of the big shifts in consolidation. The big shift in note making was the new template. There was two main shifts. One is that they do it together at the whiteboard. So it's no longer sit down and make your own notes in your notebook. No, you're going to stay in your group, you're going to make them at the whiteboard.
Speaker 3:And that was a game changer. And then the other big shift was a template that we used, which is a four quadrant template, three examples and a things to remember, and that the first quadrant is a fill in the blank and that just get and it it just allows for that structure to to be in the blank and that just and it just allows for that structure to be in the notes, because I'm putting the structure in, like I put the structure in and they fill in the structure and that makes it so accessible and approachable to the kids. And when we started doing that, we went from like 60 to 80% of kids participating to 100% participating.
Speaker 3:So that was a really big shift and then, of course, we have to think about that. Takes care of the note making. How do we then take care of the note having, if that's important and that's not hard? Yeah, that was a big shift, really, and anyone who's seen it in action is just blown away. I remember the first time we tried it was May 2023. And it was an Algebra 1 course and I tried it and, like you could just hear this, like in the whole room there was about 30 observers, there was just this, like all the there was this sharp, intricate breath Like oh my goodness, there was just like you could hear it in doing it. And then every single student got involved and all of those teachers went away and tried it as early as that day and it worked just great.
Speaker 2:I want to touch on one thing. You just said the note making versus the note having.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:How do you get teachers because this is something I struggle with sometimes that teachers want kids to have all these examples, all these working examples that they can refer to, and they're always having them make all these notes to have?
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 2:How do you help people? Let go of that and get into that. The note making is the important thing Right.
Speaker 3:So I have this really interesting graph, right? So when teachers start talking about note habits, so do you think kindergarten teachers care that kids have notes?
Speaker 2:Not usually, no, no not at all.
Speaker 3:Yeah Right, Do you think grade 12 teachers care Absolutely 100% those AP calculus?
Speaker 2:teachers. They care a lot.
Speaker 3:And that sort of creates the two endpoints of this line. Right, like the kindergarten teachers don't care at all, so they're low down. On the Y axis, the grade 12 teachers care a lot, they're high up, and now it's just this linear relation between the two, right? So if you're a 3-4 teacher, you care a bit more, if you're a 7-8, you care a bit more. If you're a grade 11 teacher, you're getting a little obsessive about it, right, right, and it and it just is his natural progression and that's the line. And and I think part of this is recognizing that all not all teachers care about this equally much. Right, it depends on what you teach, but it's, it's this linear progression. Well, that's the graph for teachers. What do you think the graph for students?
Speaker 2:correct. I didn't get the flat line at about one and a half it it did.
Speaker 3:Right Don't care don't care, don't care, don't care, don't care, don't care. And then all of a sudden, in like grade 11, they start caring To me. You're lucky.
Speaker 2:Maybe yeah.
Speaker 3:So that's the kid curve, right Like the teacher curve. Is this gentle slope? The kid curve is flat line, and then all of a sudden spikes at the end. What do you think the curve for parents looks like?
Speaker 2:Oh, the curve for parents is like way at 98% the entire way across.
Speaker 3:Yeah, they start caring way too early about kids having notes, and then it's just care a lot.
Speaker 1:And I understand why they do?
Speaker 3:because notes and homework are two really powerful windows into the classroom. Right Like, parents want to know what goes on in the classroom. Notes and homework give that insight.
Speaker 2:Without having to have that conversation where you just get oh we did stuff Right, it was fine.
Speaker 3:So there is that sort of. So we had these three curves and if you put them on the same graph, you start to realize that, okay, there's a difference here. But because of that obsession at the high school, plus the obsession of parents, we as a practice, as a profession, have started obsessing around note having. We start to do note taking, which is that sort of I'm going to write on the board and the kids are going to write in their notebook and I'm going to write on the board, also known as I call it, I write you right. But it's also known as the slowest photocopier on the planet and and it's a slow, it's a photocopier that has tons of attitude and makes a bunch of mistakes, so much like my.
Speaker 3:What I always say is if you really care that the kids have notes, put notes online, right, like. Put notes online. You'll save yourself a ton of time. The parents will love you, the notes will be clear and they won't have mistakes in them and the kids probably won't look at them, but if they've been away, they have access to it.
Speaker 3:Put notes online, and I say that with all seriousness. I think every teacher put notes online and I say that with all seriousness. I think every teacher should put notes online. It solves a lot of problems. So there must be another reason why we want students writing notes, and the reason is that we know, as teachers. We know intuitively, innately, through our own experience, that the act of writing helps students learn, right, yeah, except there's a caveat to that, and the caveat is that they have to be cognitively present. If they're just sitting there mindlessly copying what's on the board, they are not gaining a lot of benefit from it. They have to be cognitively present, which means that they have to be making decisions. They have to be cognitively present, which means that they have to be making decisions. They have to be selecting and sequencing things to write. They have to be note-making rather than note-taking.
Speaker 2:So we can achieve both Doing the thinking.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we can achieve both of these. We can put notes online. There's a note-having. We can have the students make the notes in these groups. At the whiteboard there's a note making, and what that does, especially with this four quadrant structure, is it helps the students organize, structure and formalize their thinking right.
Speaker 2:It's helping us close that lesson.
Speaker 1:You're making me think a little bit too about as a teacher, I didn't take notes to help me be a better teacher, no. And as a parent, I didn't take notes to help me be a better teacher, no. And as a parent, I didn't take notes to help me be a better parent. And when I got into past high school, my teacher said the notes are in the book, we're just going to work this out together.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and this was actually like very much like early versions of flipped classrooms, which was we want to spend the time together doing things that we can only do when we're together and we want to spend the time when we're on our own doing things that we can do when we're on our own right, we don't need to write notes, like in many ways when I watch this sort of I write, you write the message that the, the teacher, was sending and the kids were picking up on because I was interviewing these things. It's like these people. It's we're not going to do any work right now, but these notes are there in case I want to do some work later on my own at home without support.
Speaker 3:So it's I think it's really really important, right Depending? Like, if you believe notes are important, put them online. If you believe notes are important, put them online. But what we found is, for all students all the way down to kindergarten, note making is important Because it's part of that closing routine. It's part of helping kids turn the chaos of meeting making into meeting making. And the structure that we provide helps them do that.
Speaker 2:So you have a new book out.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, you know what that means. That's all we have time for on this podcast, for a conversation with Peter Lillodal, and you'll need to tune in in two weeks, on November 26th, if you want to hear part two and we know you will because it's going to be amazing.
Speaker 4:See you soon. Bye, so that is all we have time for on this episode of the More Math for More People podcast. If you are interested in connecting with us on social media, find our links in the podcast description, and the music for the podcast was created by Julius H. It can be found on pixabaycom. So thank you very much, julius. Join us in two weeks for the next episode of More Math for More People. What day will that be, joel?
Speaker 1:It'll be November 26th, good Grief Day, where we celebrate the cartoon Peanuts and Charlie Brown. It's that time of year where there's several Charlie Brown and Peanuts movies out there, with the holidays and Halloween, I believe and there's a Thanksgiving and there's a Christmas and there's all sorts of specials that'll be on the TV. But we're going to celebrate Peanuts and Charlie Brown and, as Charlie Brown often said, be yourself. Nobody can say you're doing it wrong. See you on November 26th, thank you.