More Math for More People
CPM Educational Program is a non-profit publisher of math textbooks for grades 6-12. As part of its mission, CPM provides a multitude of professional learning opportunities for math educators. The More Math for More People podcast is part of that outreach and mission. Published biweekly, the hosts, Joel Miller and Misty Nikula, discuss the CPM curriculum, trends in math education and share strategies to shift instructional practices to create a more inclusive and student-centered classroom. They also highlight upcoming CPM professional learning opportunities and have conversations with math educators about how they do what they do. We hope that you find the podcast informative, engaging and fun. Intro music credit: JuliusH from pixabay.com.
More Math for More People
Episode 3.23: Let's Laugh with Joel and Misty and then think about our discretionary spaces
Get ready for a blend of humor and insight with Joel and Misty on the More Math for More People Podcast as they celebrate "Let's Laugh Day" and Joel's quirky half birthday tradition.
Then they delve into the world of discretionary spaces in education. Pam Lindemer and Adam Varnes join them to unpack how these spaces are pivotal to foster inclusive and safe learning environments. Imagine steering a ship with over a thousand decisions to make daily – that's the life of a teacher in the classroom ocean! They discuss how the staggering 1500+ choices faced by educators weave the tapestry of student experience. They peel back the layers of these choices, highlighting the subtle messages they send and the transformative power of reflective practices. If you'd like to join a conversation with other educators on this topic, check out the Site-Based Leadership Program at https://cpm.org/sbl/
Then another installment of Join Them on Their Journey with Grahame and Maggie.
Send Joel and Misty a message!
The More Math for More People Podcast is produced by CPM Educational Program.
Learn more at CPM.org
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Email: cpmpodcast@cpm.org
Hello everyone, it is March 19th 2024. And this is Episode 23 of Season 3 of the More Math for More People Podcast. Cheers.
Speaker 2:Hello, there, I'm. Joel.
Speaker 1:And I'm Misty.
Speaker 2:And you're listening to the More Math for More People Podcast, an outreach of CPM educational program.
Speaker 1:We have a lot of conversations about math and math education on this podcast. We're passionate about continually improving the way math is taught and we hope that you learn something in every episode that helps you become better at what you do.
Speaker 2:And we hope that you have some fun and laugh as well. That always makes things a little more interesting.
Speaker 1:Yep, we're pretty passionate about having fun Joel.
Speaker 2:So please have a listen, and we think it'll be well worth it.
Speaker 1:Well, here we are. It is our national day segment. So, as I always say, Joel, what day is it?
Speaker 2:Haha, let's laugh day.
Speaker 1:Wow, that was a really believable laugh. Yeah it was like wow.
Speaker 2:Haha, yeah, it's a very genuine laugh. Let's laugh day.
Speaker 1:Let's laugh day okay. Is there something in particular other than just like why is it? Let's laugh today instead of just like laughing day, that's a good question Maybe that sounds. I guess that sounds more inviting. What's that? It's inclusive and inviting.
Speaker 2:Maybe it's. I mean, have a little fun with your day. Maybe the image I'm seeing for the day. It's a laughy taffy, so it's a laughy taffy sponsoring the stay.
Speaker 1:Really.
Speaker 2:Oh, so it's like let's laugh laff. No, it's, let's laugh, laugh. But this year it is brought to us by Laffy Taffy.
Speaker 1:Oh, man, we haven't had any sponsorships on the podcast to this point.
Speaker 2:Now we're sponsored well, today is sponsored Laffy Taffy, that's right, and it's a 24 hour joke fest.
Speaker 1:Oh wow, this is expanding quite a bit, so it's also jokes, laughing about jokes. Do you have a go to joke?
Speaker 2:How many surrealists does it take to screw in a light bulb? I don't know A fish.
Speaker 1:That sounds good. I like that one. I've probably told my you could have my joke on the podcast before, but people might not remember it or have heard it.
Speaker 2:Let's hear it again.
Speaker 1:Before. But my go to joke is what's green and has wheels? I don't know Grass, I lied about the wheels.
Speaker 2:I'm shaking my head on a podcast. I know I can't see it in the mouth.
Speaker 6:No one can see you shaking your head.
Speaker 1:That is funny.
Speaker 2:It is funny.
Speaker 1:There's a whole it's probably like a hidden brain or something where they talk about like what we find funny, and one of the things we find funny is something that we don't expect right. We don't predict it. It's that unpredictable piece. And then something about oh it makes sense, kind of, but it's not what we predicted.
Speaker 2:Well, I'll say also, there might be some laughter involved in this. But today is also halfway to my birthday day and I celebrate my I always celebrate my hot birthday. There's usually a lot of people out. They there's special foods. There's a parade here in Salt Lake City on my half birthday.
Speaker 1:On your half birthday.
Speaker 2:For my half birthday, I'm sure.
Speaker 1:I think they call it something like it's a lake city, or is it Joel's half birthday parade? No, it's Joel's half birthday day.
Speaker 2:Some people get it mixed up with St Patty's Day because it's on the same day, but it's really for On the same day as St Patrick's?
Speaker 1:It's really for me? No, it's not.
Speaker 2:It's my halfway birthday.
Speaker 1:It's close enough, it's about my birthday, oh. I see, I see, I see, I see.
Speaker 2:I see. I see, Because St Patty's Day is like on the 17th or something. Yeah.
Speaker 1:It's just like the pre-amble for your half birthday.
Speaker 2:That's right. Everybody's just getting ready for my birthday, my half birthday. I celebrate my half birthday religiously every year, and so may or may not celebrate my birthday.
Speaker 1:Have you always celebrated your half birthday? You always celebrate your half birthday and you might not celebrate your actual birthday. That's right, that's interesting.
Speaker 2:I know why is that. I think I'm trying to be a little funny Because it's St Patty's Day, for I got you, I got you.
Speaker 1:okay, I think it all started too.
Speaker 2:I remember my mom and I when I was young I was probably in middle school and we were in a house exchange program and so a family from Paris came to live in our house and we went and we lived in their house and in France they celebrate Joel Day. Because I guess he was a saint and I kind of really liked getting some presents from Joel Day and celebrating Joel Day, so I got maybe it's that motivation as well that I want to continue the process.
Speaker 1:I've never done a half birthday myself Like I have to think about when my half birthday is. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Think about it. It's never really come up in my life before. If you need assistance in looking at what else is being celebrated that day, to be with it. You know what. You have a resource right here.
Speaker 1:All right, I will definitely look into it Okay.
Speaker 2:All right, so it's let's Laugh Day. Let's Laugh Day On Joel's half birthday. Half birthday, so if you have any, send your best wishes please.
Speaker 1:Any things left over from St Patrick's Day. You could enjoy them today, on Joel's half birthday and let's Laugh Day.
Speaker 2:That's right.
Speaker 1:Cheers ["Let's Laugh Day"]. ["let's Laugh Day"].
Speaker 2:Okay, so today we're here with Pam Lindemur and Adam Varnes, and I got the fortunate opportunity to be attending site-based leadership this year, and in site-based leadership we've been talking a lot about discretionary spaces, and so we wanted to hear from Pam and Adam, because they've written an article in the newsletter about such things. So welcome, pam and Adam. Thanks for having us. Yeah, of course. Thank you and maybe if we just wanna start off letting us know about these discretionary spaces.
Speaker 6:So what are they right?
Speaker 1:That's the question.
Speaker 6:So kind of to put it in really simple terms discretionary spaces are. They're those micro moments in which we make decisions, and so these moments when we're in the classroom or when we're with our peers or colleagues they're not necessarily dictated by curriculum or school policies or even what we intended to have happen, but rather they're those unplanned moments where a judgment call needs to be made, a decision needs to be made, and our responses in these discretionary spaces provide instances that reveal beliefs, they reveal our biases, but they also provide opportunities for reflection as well. So that's the simple version of what a discretionary space is, don't you?
Speaker 5:When I think about discretionary spaces, when I first started thinking about them, I thought about my job as a grandmother and when my grandkids I pick them up after school sometimes and they are tired and ready for a snack and they'll often ask me if they can watch a show. And that's one of those micro moments where I have a decision to make and it might be easier just to turn on a show and let them watch than they are arguing, and I'm not fighting them about what I'm giving them for a snack. But I have decided to be more intentional about that and choose to sit down with them and have a conversation instead. So that's just an outside of education example that might help.
Speaker 2:Yeah, for sure I didn't think about that in the context of our conversation that we have discretionary spaces everywhere in our lives and how we handle those. So that's awesome.
Speaker 1:We have discretionary spaces right now. That's true.
Speaker 2:That's true. What kind of drew this as a topic for site-based leadership? Are you all writing the article? Got you interested?
Speaker 5:Well, last July I was in Detroit at the Michigan Council of Teachers of Mathematics annual teacher conference with a couple of colleagues, and Dr Deborah Ball from the University of Michigan was the keynote and she delivered an address on the power of teaching mathematics in the struggle for justice and we felt empowered by her message and it started a conversation that's continuing today about how to be more intentional about those decisions and how we might spread the word to other teachers so they feel empowered as well. That's awesome.
Speaker 1:Can you tell me more about Dr Deborah Ball's work and?
Speaker 5:Yeah, so she takes an equity position on this and a lot of her work has to do with young black girls and how they are marginalized and how that plays out in the classroom, and so a lot of her research and her speaking engagements and her work revolves around that and how to support them.
Speaker 1:It definitely seems that discretionary spaces depending on what lens we look at, there's a lot of different things that we can view with just those little tiny decisions we're making moment to moment.
Speaker 2:In the article you all talk about the resources, even within a CPM lesson, or the resources CPM has. Could you speak about those resources and how it's connected to the theme of discretionary spaces?
Speaker 5:I think the resources, the teacher notes are filled with suggestions of how to respond in those discretionary spaces. So by engaging with teacher notes and using them as intended, teachers are better prepared to respond in the moment. Because a CPM classroom is filled with discretionary spaces, lots of opportunities, and by having those pocket questions and the study team and teaching strategies and all the differentiation, the questioning that you can do, all of those things support your responses in those moments.
Speaker 2:In the article. I liked how you talked about the study team and teaching strategies, but when you brought the pocket questions in, for me that was, oh yeah, like we need to almost train ourselves to be ready for those opportunities.
Speaker 6:Well, teachers have a lot to plan for, and so, without spoiling what's in the article, if you've read it, how many educational decisions are teachers making throughout a day? Right, and so what we could find is that teachers are making 1500 educational decisions. So in a six hour day, that's four decisions every minute, which is a lot, and in addition to that, that's not even counting things like grading or lesson planning. That's just in the classroom, right, as they're facilitating a lesson. So you think about all those decisions.
Speaker 6:Not all of them can be planned for, right, we can, we can lesson plan, we can look at our suggested lesson plan plan or study team and teaching strategies. But a lot of those moments are on the fly, especially if you're using a CPM classroom. Students are at the whiteboards. You can't anticipate everything that the groups are going to write down, but it's in those moments, it's in those discretionary spaces where we want to be aware of the decisions that we're making, the beliefs that are the result of those, and we want to use those, use these discretionary spaces, to elevate our students and elevate their mathematical status.
Speaker 1:I liked one of the things that you said in the article, also about some of the decisions are things you decide not to do. Right, just the things I might say. It might be the things I don't say, or the choices I don't make, or I choosing not to do a particular strategy or talk to a particular group. All of those little things, little tiny impacts. Being mindful of them can be exhausting, but also is really important for sure.
Speaker 2:And Pam, with your grandchildren too, how they might come not wanting to watch a movie but want to Really debrief about their day. And then you've got to be ready for that. You have that opportunity too.
Speaker 5:Yeah.
Speaker 6:And I think that was a really powerful point for us is it, even in inaction, that is still in action? So your choice as a teacher to not do something is still in action. Right, for example, you go up to a group, maybe they're making great progress. Your inaction of maybe not asking them a question and just moving on to the next group, that still says something about your beliefs, not just pedagogically, but what you believe about the group. Right, they can probably move on and they're probably gonna be great if you just leave them alone. So that was a really powerful point to us as we came to that conclusion that even inactions are still actions.
Speaker 5:I totally I recently observed a teacher and she was walking into her classroom as the bell was ringing and kids are getting settled in and she had some things to do Take attendance and things and she got stopped by one of the students and he said Did I do this correctly? And he had already finished the warm-up problem and he wanted to know. And she responded I Don't know, but if I were you I'd check my answer. Maybe you can find another way to solve the problem and see if the result is the same.
Speaker 2:And how did that work out?
Speaker 5:Oh and and and it worked out well because he found another way and checked his work. But the conversation that she and I had afterward I'm did you, did you realize when you did this? And this is what had what he went ahead and did, and it was a really great Conversation about a decision that she made that she may not have even thought about afterward, but it really got the two of us to thinking and really curious about what kind of a message we're sending to kids.
Speaker 2:True.
Speaker 1:I think that's one of the interesting things when we're talking with teachers sometimes or even with teachers are observing each other is to be able to ask each other about those decisions, because we don't always think about them and sometimes we just go with our gut or sometimes we go with a pattern that we've used before and I know I've had conversations with teachers like that where I said I'm really curious around when you decided to do this, what were you thinking, what was going on in your brain when you made that decision? And sometimes like what and really think about it oh, here's what I saw happened and they're like oh, so there's like, but it be able to observe ourselves can be challenging. So having that ability to ask each other around decisions and and pieces that we said that we might not have thought about, yeah, be really vulnerable at times.
Speaker 6:I think that was one of our main goals of this article and for having this be the theme was it applies to teachers by, just for now, at this point, just making yourself aware that there are these moments and again, you can't plan for them all, you're not gonna be able to, you're not even gonna be your best in all of those moments but just being more aware that these moments exist, both in actions and actions, or included, and and just by being more aware we can give more attention to it and hopefully that makes us better.
Speaker 2:I know by reading the article it really made me think of past decisions that I've done. Like I got really reflective about oh yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah. It hasn't done a work in my way that way.
Speaker 5:Yeah, that reflection has really helped me understand discretionary spaces much better and how I can use them to my students' advantage.
Speaker 1:So you said this is the theme for site-based leadership this year. So if someone who hears this podcast and is like what is this site-based leadership thing? I haven't heard about this, how would they go find out more?
Speaker 5:So they can join the site-based leadership program. They can go directly into the professional learning portal and join there, or, on the website, they could search for site-based leadership program and find a way to enroll in the program there, and that will give them access to recordings and information to the next two live events that we have coming up as well.
Speaker 1:Okay, awesome, and we'll put a link in the podcast description for people to find that as well. So, yeah, if you want to get involved with the site-based leadership program, it's not too late, I think. Even if you get involved now, you can continue on until next year, so it's a good time to go figure it out.
Speaker 2:Absolutely.
Speaker 6:And keep an eye out. We are working on a sequel, so one of the Yep. There's a little teaser for you. But yeah, as part of the site-based leadership program, what we wanted to do was look at discretionary spaces in different educational spaces on our site. So what are discretionary spaces? What does that look like in the classroom? What does that look like as we're coaching? What does that look like with our peers? So our first newsletter tackled the classroom and we're looking at writing a sequel that will cover discretionary spaces in a different space.
Speaker 2:That's awesome. We're hoping to have more of the folks who have presented and things like that at site-based leadership on the podcast, so we're working on a sequel too, so we'll stay tuned to both.
Speaker 1:Yeah, totally. Thank you so much for taking the time to be with us today. We really appreciate it and talking with us about discretionary spaces, and there'll be some more information in the description if you want to follow up. Thanks, and here we have another installment of Join them on their Journey.
Speaker 3:Enjoy. It's Maggie, and this is where I am on my journey. I am currently planning out some lessons that I originally had actually planned on skipping. I think what I was telling myself is that I wanted to skip these lessons so that I got to all the main content that we set out to cover this year, but the reality is that I was skipping it because I was unsure of what the outcome could be from a lesson on generational wealth. So the inspiring connection has some of these beautifully rich lessons that are new to the curriculum, and I had never taught a lesson on generational wealth, so I think I was hesitant to incorporate it into our lessons because of this unknown of what feelings could be brought up for my students, and I would say it's coming out of a place of caring for the students. But I think also and why inspiring connections was very intentional about implementing these new lessons is that we also have a great opportunity as educators to create a very safe environment for our students to engage in different topics, and engage in topics where they're ultimately going to be discussing it in their life, beyond our classroom setting, and so we want to set them up so that they are successful for when generational wealth does come up, they have tools, they have knowledge, they have language that they can use to engage in those conversations. So I am currently planning out a lessons, or a couple of lessons, for generational wealth, and so in deciding to take on these lessons, I wanted to make sure that I'm setting myself up to be the best teacher for these lessons, but then also make sure that it's a safe environment.
Speaker 3:So what I'm gonna share about is just two main points that I'm really focusing on in the decision to go ahead with these lessons and how I'm trying to ensure that all students feel very safe and heard and valued. So the first one that I'm really thinking about is making sure that the students have norms, making sure that there is a way that we are communicating. I do teach seventh grade, so in thinking about seventh graders and their excitement, sometimes it happens that they'll share what's on their mind. So what I'm gonna be doing is really setting the norms of how we communicate about wealth at the very beginning of this class, and my hope is that the students who are more privileged and have access to different things do not blurt out what their family's wealth situation is versus other students who may not have access to that. So some of the norms that I'm going to be setting at the beginning is gonna be primarily focusing on that we can engage in conversations about wealth without directly sharing what our own in this case, family's wealth background is, and I think that's a skill that they can take beyond just this safe classroom setting. That we can talk about stocks, we can talk about mortgages and financial aid and we can engage in these conversations without making anyone feel uncomfortable because maybe we have access to that or maybe we don't have access to that.
Speaker 3:So setting the norms of how we're communicating is gonna be one of the first things that I am going to do to ensure that all students feel comfortable.
Speaker 3:And then the next thing that I'm really focusing on as I'm going through and creating these lessons is seeing if there's are any opportunities where potential questions will come up beyond just the math when the lessons it's going over student loans and trying to think about in the middle school mind what things that they might be thinking about and really making sure that I can answer or say I don't have the answer to, but we can figure it out. And so I'm trying to be very proactive, especially in these lessons that I would be lying if I didn't say like it makes me feel uncomfortable, because I wouldn't want the students to feel uncomfortable, and so I am excited to go through these lessons. I am glad that I took some time to reflect on my own teaching and what would be beneficial to the students. I have, again, not taught this class yet, so I'm looking forward to teaching it and then reporting back in my next installment.
Speaker 4:Hello, misty and Joel Graham here reporting at the end of the third term. I can't believe the years flown by as fast as it has. We have one more quarter to go and that's the end of the year, and while that's approaching quickly, I think this time of year teachers and students can kind of get into a same old routine where we're just going through the motions. I recently had an observation by a coach from our district and I got some good feedback on engagement and ideas for enhancing collaboration. I think they were some good reminders that I'd like to focus on as I move forward, the first one being with engagement and enhancing collaboration. Getting students moving and up at vertical surfaces can be a great way to get students talking and thinking together. So I've been trying to find problems that students can work on at vertical surfaces within the CPM curriculum, and when I do that I find class moves a lot smoother and students generally are more engaged. Some other ideas that went along with that were to include ice breakers with students getting to know each other, but also when they go to the vertical surfaces I could do some activities like line up in different orders or some brain breaks where students take a break and do something that revitalizes their mind and body. I usually have students give the marker to whoever has a birthday that's closest to the day that we're doing the activity, or whoever has the least amount of siblings, trying to get students to know each other as they're working with each other.
Speaker 4:Another thing that's come up is to make sure that I'm using variety of classroom modes. This was a good reminder from Section 3 instructional strategies that are evident when collaborative learning is in place. So I've been trying to find times when it's appropriate to have classroom discussions, students working in teams where we don't need to review the problems, and then individual work time. I really value students working together and collaborating and sharing ideas, but I've learned that not every student thrives in those conditions and some students actually appreciate that individual work time. I think that using the variety and getting students up and moving can really help class run more smoothly and students be more engaged with what we're doing.
Speaker 4:The last thing that I've reflected on at the end of the term here has been my use of alternative assessments. I've done presentations and projects and I've really found those to be beneficial for students but also for me, to see how they are learning the material and how they're thinking about it. I'm able to ask students particular questions about the mathematics they use, and they are also able to be a little more creative with the presentation and the project and choosing how they want to show and demonstrate their understanding of the math. One of my favorite projects that a student did was she calculated the angles and position of a cue ball and then videoed herself hitting the ball against two walls of a billiard table and sinking it into a pocket. Well, thanks for listening. Keep up the good work everyone.
Speaker 1:So that's all we have time for on this episode of the More Math for More People podcast. The music for the podcast was created by Julius H and can be found on pixivaycom. Julius, join us in two weeks for the next episode of More Math for More People. What day will that be, Joel?
Speaker 2:It'll be April 2nd, national Peanut Butter and Jelly Day. I love a good peanut butter and jelly. I think that's probably one of my favorite things to take with me if I'm driving in the car or anything like that Peanut butter for sure. I don't often do the jelly, but when I do I don't regret it, that's for sure. I hear all sorts of stories about peanut butter and jelly and I know there's some songs. I know there's good stories and history around peanut butter and jelly and it's just one of the most popular sandwiches that are around today and it's affordable, it's tasty, it's easy. I can only appreciate it. On April 2nd. See you then.