More Math for More People
CPM Educational Program is a non-profit publisher of math textbooks for grades 6-12. As part of its mission, CPM provides a multitude of professional learning opportunities for math educators. The More Math for More People podcast is part of that outreach and mission. Published biweekly, the hosts, Joel Miller and Misty Nikula, discuss the CPM curriculum, trends in math education and share strategies to shift instructional practices to create a more inclusive and student-centered classroom. They also highlight upcoming CPM professional learning opportunities and have conversations with math educators about how they do what they do. We hope that you find the podcast informative, engaging and fun. Intro music credit: JuliusH from pixabay.com.
More Math for More People
Episode 14: Where Joel and Misty model a Pairs Check about how to make deviled eggs and they talk with Dr Judy Kysh about CPM’s beginnings
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Episode 14 is here!
It’s National Deviled Egg Day so Joel and Misty talk about how to make them as they model a Pairs Check Study Team and Teaching Strategy.
They also have a conversation with Dr Judy Kysh, one of the founders of CPM, about how it all got started 30+ years ago… She has some great stories that you won’t want to miss!
So grab your deviled eggs of choice and come hang out with us for awhile.
Send Joel and Misty a message!
The More Math for More People Podcast is produced by CPM Educational Program.
Learn more at CPM.org
X: @cpmmath
Facebook: CPMEducationalProgram
Email: cpmpodcast@cpm.org
Welcome to November 2nd, 2021. This is episode 14 of the More Math for More People podcast. Cheers.
SPEAKER_01Okay, here we go. Hello, I'm Joel. And I'm Misty. And this is More Math for More People brought to you by CPM Educational Program.
SPEAKER_03This podcast supports middle and high school teachers with best practices, relevant research, helpful hints and tips, and anything else that randomly comes to our minds.
SPEAKER_01We hope you find this podcast both entertaining and informative for your math teaching practice.
unknownBoom.
SPEAKER_03So Joel.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03What day is it today?
SPEAKER_01It's National Deviled Egg Day.
SPEAKER_03National Deviled Egg Day.
SPEAKER_01I'm kind of emphasizing egg, not eggs.
SPEAKER_03I I heard that in there. So National De So wow. Deviled eggs, I feel like, are one of those things that people either love or hate. There's not a lot of middle ground with deviled eggs.
SPEAKER_01I would probably agree with that.
SPEAKER_03Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_01And some would not like it from texture, maybe, or some taste, of course, things like that.
SPEAKER_03If people don't like eggs, they wouldn't like deviled eggs.
SPEAKER_01Probably not.
SPEAKER_03Though I feel like when I was a kid, I liked deviled eggs more than just hard-boiled eggs. Because Well, okay, so my memory of hard-boiled eggs, um, mostly from like Easter, of course, but we also had to have hard-boiled eggs at other times. But the the yolk part of the hard-boiled eggs was cooked really well. Really, really well. Like, I think we simmered the eggs for about 20 minutes. Ooh. And then put the cold water on them. Yeah. So they were very well done. And so if we took those deviled eggs then and took the centers out and m mushed it up with a bunch of other delicious things, then it was much more delightful to eat. I bet. Because we were also, if you were going to eat a hard-boiled egg, you were required to eat the entire hard-boiled eggs. You couldn't just eat the eggs.
SPEAKER_01Well, you can't save it. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Well, I mean, you I mean you could just throw it away. You couldn't like, I'm just gonna eat the white part and not eat the yolk. Like we had to eat the yolk.
SPEAKER_01And the way you're describing it sounds like it'd be like almost like a dry powder. It was really dry.
SPEAKER_03And when I became an adult, I learned that you could cook hard-boiled eggs very differently and that the yolk could be soft and actually delicious.
SPEAKER_01So true, so true. Well, you we usually always had a hard-boiled egg in the fridge at all times for a snack or something.
SPEAKER_03Well, just one?
SPEAKER_01Well, like a container. But if it got down to one, then we had to make some more.
SPEAKER_03You would have at least one.
SPEAKER_01I gotcha. I gotcha. And the d the deviled eggs, though, I also think are delicious. And there's so many ways that you can make them. It's crazy. Yes.
SPEAKER_03I know. I think we're gonna do our study team and teaching strategy around how to make devil digs, right?
SPEAKER_01We are indeed. Okay. And what's our strategy today?
SPEAKER_03I think our strategy today is a pairs check. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_03Which will take some explaining. Yeah. And then as anything, when we do it as an example, that helps with the explaining, I hope. That's the that's the idea, right?
SPEAKER_01I hope so. That's why we're doing this.
SPEAKER_03I hope so. We hope it's effective.
SPEAKER_01That's right. So pairs check is where you have you're in pairs. That makes sense. And team member number one writes down as team member number two explains the problem. So this could be a math problem. We're gonna do it around deviled eggs today. Yep. But that sort of thing. And then team member one will ask clarifying questions as team member two is explaining the problem. Once that process is done, that pair exchanges with another pair, and then there's some feedback there. So if you agree with what the other pair did, you would say, check, great, sounds good. And if you disagree, you would have to try and figure out what exactly went wrong.
SPEAKER_03Alright, so we're going to we're gonna be a pair.
SPEAKER_01Yep.
SPEAKER_03And you're going to describe how to make deviled eggs.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_03And I'm gonna write it down, and I will ask for clarifications or uh questions as I'm writing it, if I don't understand what you're telling me.
SPEAKER_01Okay, yes, I agree.
SPEAKER_03Okay, hold on one second, I get ready to write. Okay. Okay, go ahead.
SPEAKER_01You ready?
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_01So to make a deviled egg, first you have to hard boil the eggs.
SPEAKER_04So I've got to hard boil the eggs.
SPEAKER_01That's right.
SPEAKER_04Okay.
SPEAKER_01And so I like to put it kind of just in a single layer in a pan there, and I put cold water on it. Start.
SPEAKER_04Okay. Single layer cold water.
SPEAKER_01And then I bring that up to a boil. Bring to boil. Once it's boiled, I actually go about the 10 minute, but 10 to 14 minutes is kind of what you boil for 10 minutes? Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_03Okay. Boil like uh hard boil, simmer boil, like does it matter?
SPEAKER_01Um that's a good question. What I don't I don't bring it down to a simmer. I keep it h high heat.
SPEAKER_04Okay. High heat. Okay.
SPEAKER_01Once that's done, I rinse under cold water. Rinse under cold water.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_01Rinse. And that way I can kind of once the cold water's there, I kind of get the shell off and then kind of Oh, you're gonna peel them right now. Kind of peel them right now. Peel eggs.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_01And then this is kind of the fun part, I think. We talked about the yolks and things, but we I slice them in half and take out those yolks with a spoon and put them in a bowl.
SPEAKER_03Slice them in half? Doesn't matter which way you slice them in half?
SPEAKER_01I slice them lengthwise. I think that's a traditional way. Lengthwise. It would be interesting though to see what would happen if to cut them the width way and just see maybe get different.
SPEAKER_03And then you said you put the yolks put yolks in bowl.
SPEAKER_01In a bowl. And then just kind of I add I d I really don't do measurements, but I add some mayo, I add some vinegar, I add some mustard, I add some hot sauce.
SPEAKER_03Mayo vinegar, mustard, salt and pepper. Salt and pepper.
SPEAKER_01And I just mix it all up.
SPEAKER_03I think I can write fast.
SPEAKER_01You are keeping up really well.
SPEAKER_03No one can read it, but I'm writing it very fast.
SPEAKER_01There we go. I hope our partners will be able to read it. Well Okay, okay.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. I'm doing my best. I'm doing my best. And JJ and Nikki are on their own.
SPEAKER_01Fair enough. And then once that's kind of all mixed together, then just I try and equally put the mixture back into the sliced eggs.
SPEAKER_04Okay. Equally put in sliced eggs.
SPEAKER_01And then I top it off with just a little paprika.
SPEAKER_04Top with a little paprika.
SPEAKER_01And uh and they're ready to go. And the best thing is you can serve them and eat them right then, or they keep pretty well too.
SPEAKER_03Eat or wait.
SPEAKER_01That's right.
SPEAKER_03Okay, great. Okay, so now we're gonna give this to uh Nikki and JJ. Correct. And they're gonna give us their procedure and we're gonna check. Yes. So I have Nikki and JJ's procedure. So this is what theirs says. Deviled eggs. Ingredients. Six hard-cooked eggs peeled. Three tablespoons mayonnaise or salad dressing, one half teaspoon ground mustard, one eighth of a teaspoon salt.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_03One eighth of a teaspoon pepper. Paprika if desire. Okay. And it says steps one. Cut eggs lengthwise in half. Two, slip out yolks and mash with fork. Three, stir in mayonnaise, mustard, salt, and pepper. Or fill whites with egg yolk mixture by heaping it lightly. And then lastly it says cover and refrigerate up to 24 hours.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_03So what do you think of their procedure?
SPEAKER_01I uh on the surface it sounds really good, but I'm wondering how do they get those hard-cooked eggs.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so they're they didn't give the directions on how to make the eggs. Yeah. Maybe they just bought them at the store. Because you can buy har already cooked hard-cooked eggs at the store. So they didn't put those directions.
SPEAKER_01Maybe that's good to clarify, maybe not.
SPEAKER_03I like they put the amounts of the eggs, like there's six eggs and there's this much stuff that would help with not making them too mayonnaise or too mustard.
SPEAKER_01That's true. Or too salty.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Also, okay, so my big question also though is they said paprika if desired, but I don't know what they're supposed to do with the paprika. They didn't say where or when to put the paprika on. Am I mixing it into the egg mixture or am I putting it on?
SPEAKER_01That would be good to clarify.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01Show the reasoning.
SPEAKER_03But otherwise, I think I like it. It's very it's very short and concise and to the point.
SPEAKER_01And I would try one if they brought them to share in the class.
SPEAKER_03So we're here today with uh Dr. Judy Kish. She's one of the founding members of CPM. Since 2000, she's been a professor in the departments of secondary education and mathematics at San Francisco State University, where she teaches both graduate and undergraduate courses in mathematics education and research methods. Her research interests are in the areas of mathematics education, particularly classroom discourse and in teacher research and school change. Dr. Kish holds the title of founding director on the board of directors for CPM Educational Program, and she's been involved with the company since its inception. So welcome to the podcast, Judy. We're so glad that you're here. Welcome, Judy. Thank you. I'm happy to be here. Thanks for taking the time on your busy schedule. So tell us how did CPM get started?
SPEAKER_00How did Wow.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I know.
SPEAKER_00It really got started um several years before it started through a project that we were doing uh with Tom Salee at UC Davis. And Tom and I were involved in what was called the Northern California Math Project that got a groups of teachers together every summer to share their best teaching ideas and learn some more math and think about teaching math differently, more intensely, so students would understand it and participate and enjoy it. And so what grew out of this is we've worked with K-12 teachers and the teachers stayed involved for several years because they came back as mentors or they came back as teacher researchers or they we stayed involved. They did professional development with other teachers. But um turned out that the elementary and middle school teachers were implementing a lot of these ideas, but the high school teachers came back and said, Look, you're giving us all of this exciting tasks and these things to do and and ways that we can engage our students, but we can't do that because the university is sitting there dictating all this content that we have to teach. So if you really want us to do this, you're gonna have to help us change the curriculum. And that basically was the grounding that came together behind our getting involved with CPM or creating CPM. At about that same time, California, this was late 1980s, California and the nation were in kind of a big reform effort in terms of teaching and learning mathematics, and there was a lot of funding available for various projects, and some came into California, and California advertised that they wanted to support a curriculum project for um for algebra geometry algebra too for the high school program. And so people started saying, Well, you should apply. So we did. And uh and we got funded. And one of the really nice things that is kind of ancillary about it was uh at the same time, there were other math educators in California whom I knew well, a couple at San Francisco State, I was at Davis, who were also proposing a program. They were our competitors, and we talked, and there could only be one. There was grant money for one program. So we talked and they were proposing something far more radical, like a totally integrated program that would require a three-year commitment for teachers to get involved in that was much more shaking up the curriculum and task-oriented, whereas what we were proposing we called college prep math. So it was mainly for the top eighty percent of people, is the way we saw it originally. And it was supposed to be change from within, that was our subtitle. It was supposed to be something that an individual teacher with the agreement of their department in school could go ahead and try out, and it wouldn't interrupt a student's program. They could continue on to their next class, and we thought do better. So we decided to write mutually supporting letters for these programs, and they both got funded. So that was where we started.
SPEAKER_03So you you worked with Tom at Davis at that time?
SPEAKER_00Yes, yes. Tom, he was the principal investigator and I was the director for the program.
SPEAKER_03So So when did Brian Hoey get involved? Was he involved at the very beginning also?
SPEAKER_00I should also say that the other um perpetrator was uh Elaine Casematis, who recently passed away. But yes, Brian actually was involved in our California math project earlier on and had taken on a number of leadership roles. And so when uh what happened was we were about three years in to CPM, and actually one of the really wonderful things about it is that we initially had, I think it was 27 teachers involved in doing the original first draft of Algebra One. I don't think Brian was involved in that one, but he was active with the math project, which was running simultaneously. But about by three years in, we had also we had worked on revising the first course and writing the second course, and then teachers were starting to hear about these materials. And and actually it was really funny because we would get threatening emails um or or letters from teachers saying, look, if you don't make these materials, your new versions, if you don't include us in this, we're just gonna get them from somebody and copy your old materials. And so we had to do something about making them available to people and expanding our like professional development effort. And all of a sudden we were growing so fast that the university's paper reproduction was having trouble keeping up with us. I was driving actually at one point Elaine and I had a van load of copies of units because it was printed out unit by unit, and we were going to a meeting with our group of teachers in Sacramento, and actually we were afraid that the van was so overloaded with paper, it was about writing on its axles. So we had to um we had to do something about how to print.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And we had to get organized. And so Tom and came up with this idea of forming a nonprofit corporation. And then Brian also got involved in our second proposal to do more with assessment at the same time. And Brian had far more skills in terms of organization. Tom and I were not great at setting up a business. We really needed somebody who had good organizational skills and the right connections. So there was Brian, and and he was perfect.
SPEAKER_01That's so cool.
SPEAKER_00Actually, we used a lot of connections through um Brian's uh fellow soccer umpires in the Sacramento area to get the uh nonprofit corporation going.
SPEAKER_01Kind of the underground of the nonprofits there.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well, it's the the good old boy networking of one form or another, but it was basically all networking, yeah.
SPEAKER_03One of my one of my first memories, I think it was the first time I ever met actually, you and Tom was uh the writing project in Davis. And it was like the first day, and we were all sitting, and Leslie was sort of beginning to tell us what we were going to be doing and different things and so on. And within half hour, 45 minutes of us all sitting there and getting started, you and Tom got into what I would say I would call an argument. And it was a mathematical argument, but it was it was very much you were debating something that you both felt very strongly with. And it was really interesting to me because it it caught me off guard because I was like, oh my gosh, these are like two of the most important people in CPM and they're arguing. And but it also really laid this very lovely model of how to have discourse when you disagree about ideas and still really be able to like be heard and listen to each other and and move forward and create something, even though you don't you might see something a little bit differently. And I thought that was really wonderful.
SPEAKER_00That was one of Tom and my favorite favorite things to do is that and in fact, at some point we became aware that we were doing this.
SPEAKER_02Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_00And then one or the other of us would pretty much do something like that at every new meeting just to kind of get things started to show it's it's good to disagree, actually. It's out of these disagreements that actually we reach compromise and we put things together so they work for everybody. I mean, that's our goal is to get this to work for all, every teacher and every student.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01The foundations of the strategies right there.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. And I think that's one of the things that I sort of felt out of it. It that neither of you was really arguing to win. And in fact, it you did seem to both be enjoying the discussion. And and that it was, it was about we have these two different things, and how can we make what we're doing better by having open discussion about what we really are thinking and feeling.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I think I think I hope this is something that we can always maintain. I think it really makes us strong.
SPEAKER_01I hope so too.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01So the first time, Judy, that I met you, we were all getting together is my first time getting together with CPM folks. And we were in Denver in 2015, I think, and you and I were working on a Tom's problem together. And I could just to begin, it it's almost like you had your strategy for Tom's problem. You said, Okay, where are we going to start? But what I really loved and appreciated about the whole process of working with you is you kept saying things like, Well, what if we tried this? What if we tried this way? And that opened up my idea of teaching, my idea of helping students for sure. So that was a fun memory for me.
SPEAKER_00Well, that was one of the I mean, one of the really cool things that Tom kept doing was contributing problems that were totally unfamiliar. So if I was asking, what are you thinking? What are we doing? It was easy to do because it was totally honest. I had no clue.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00Any more than anybody else as to how to get started. And so that was kind of a wonderful, a wonderful thing because he could pose a problem that you would feel comfortable with saying, Well, I really don't have anything to bring to this. How what what can we put together and how can we use that?
SPEAKER_01So cool.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I feel very fortunate. Work at a company that was started by what I consider to be some fairly brilliant math-minded people and who really brought their skills to the table and really worked together to make something really pretty impressive, I think.
SPEAKER_00And and we weren't afraid to be to do things differently. I think that well, I hope that maybe one of the things that that I do contribute is that if you have a different way of looking at something, then you should let everybody know, because even if it's a really stupid idea, it'll get other people thinking in different directions. And they may not deal with your idea, but something better will probably come out of it.
SPEAKER_03Sure. Yeah, I think that's a fabulous message. Thank you. Yeah. As you look at where CPM is now, did you have any idea it would ever become as some something as you know.
SPEAKER_00I honestly had no idea that it would become anything like what we've become. And that's the power of all the people that have been involved. I did I wrote into our second proposal a they asked for ev an evaluation of the project. And I said basically, because most projects they never follow up on the evaluation, and the evaluation, if you really wanted to do it right, really takes half your budget. So you can't do the project, you know. You can't get started. But my suggestion was that if they really wanted to evaluate CPM, they should see how many teachers and students were using the program 10 years from 1989, not ever having an idea that it would be so widespread by 1999. And we far exceeded my dream by then even.
SPEAKER_03So is there anything else that um we always like to kind of say, you know, anything else that you think that our listeners should know, something else that teachers using CPM or you know, other people should know about CPM or about you or about how it started?
SPEAKER_00That's hard to say. One of the things that I I do know is that every chance I get to actually dive back into the materials and use them and rarely do I get to use them with students but often with teachers um or new teachers or student teachers to have them work on the tasks that the one thing that I s I still haven't learned and I still have to work on is how to bite my lip and listen to what the students are coming up with because there are some tasks that I've used repeatedly from CPM and every time I use them I get a new addition to methods of solution.
SPEAKER_03Nice.
SPEAKER_00And when I try to anticipate where they're gonna go I have to realize that I have to not hold back. I don't know all the ways yet yeah I love that. And I guess that's I guess that's maybe my favorite I was thinking the other day just in a conversation while on the way home what keeps me really excited about math education is that the opportunity to help someone sometime during the week to make a new connection and to see that happen. And often it's a new connection for me. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Thank you so much Judy for being with us today and taking time out of your very busy schedule your very busy retired schedule sounds like we really appreciate it and we appreciate your time and all of what you've done for CPM over the years. Thank you so much.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely thank you. Well thank you Wow what a great uh conversation with Judy that was amazing I love talking with Judy she has such great stories.
SPEAKER_03Yeah and she's she's just done so much for over 30 years now with CPM and from the very beginnings I just I love her attitude about it. There were two things that stood out for me. One, I loved and I and I know she says this because I I've heard her and actually with Tom say this like this might be a stupid idea. Yeah like and they and they just you know but she's like even even the ideas that are nope, we're not gonna do that, da da da but it helps us examine and think about what we are doing or it gives us oh let's try this and then even like in a math problem yeah we're like well that didn't work but now we know some more information and it helps us get to something else and I think organizationally and in our society that if we get too attached to all the idea we can't I can't give an idea unless I know it's right or good. Yeah then we don't have those conversations that lead us to the better ideas.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely yeah it makes it makes me feel better about things as well because I always feel like I do give a lot of ideas and not very many of them are good. So that's I'll I'll continue to do so.
SPEAKER_03You should you should you should continue to give bad ideas. Yeah it also reminds me that I mean I tell teachers in my in my learning events that they're gonna make bad choices because they don't have enough information. And again it's my job to help them make better bad choices because you're still gonna make a bad choice because you don't have enough information.
SPEAKER_01That's right.
SPEAKER_03I loved also her comments which basically get back for me about curiosity. Curiosity about how kids think or how you know in her case teachers but how people make sense of math. Yeah and how they make sense of ideas I think is is just so interesting and and to just be able to ask kids questions and say okay well why why why do you think that and then as they explain it sometimes I'm like whoa pretty cool that's really cool.
SPEAKER_01I I was doing some site visits this week and that that happened for John's Redwood problem. Oh nice instead of drawing a a linear graph somebody had drawn a bar graph for each year. And I had never seen that the teacher had never seen that it was just a fun moment to say wow I've never seen that before that's kind of cool.
SPEAKER_03Yeah why did you do that? How does it make sense?
SPEAKER_01It was fun.
SPEAKER_03Yeah I love that and and that we're never done learning.
SPEAKER_01Mm-hmm so true.
SPEAKER_03I mean unless we choose to be done learning we're never done learning.
SPEAKER_01Agreed for more information and to stay connected with CPM happenings you can find CPM on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram.
SPEAKER_03Our intro music is one of the very talented contributions that you can find on pixabay.com Thank you JuliusH for your creation join us for the next episode of More Math for more people what day will that be Joel?
SPEAKER_01It'll be November 16th National Button Day I was looking in my button drawer the other day I have a lot of buttons that I've collected over the years. I don't know what I'm gonna do with them but I do have them available should I have a video button I did learn some big buttons I learned button fridge buttons are button just buttons and they did third crazy that the church started calling them probably because most of that time button so the church actually didn't have the stare button so it was