More Math for More People
Episode 4.5: Where Joel and Misty talk about sugar cookies and have part 2 of their conversation with Kevin Dykema
Join Joel and Misty as they celebrate National Sugar Cookie Day. Learn about when sugar cookies first were made and revel in fun facts like Pillsbury's world record for most cookies iced in one hour.
Next, they continue their thought-provoking conversation with Kevin Dykema, president of NCTM, about promoting productive struggle in math classrooms. They talk about how teachers can balance encouraging perseverance with timely intervention to foster critical thinking and problem-solving skills. They'll also discuss moving beyond procedural knowledge to make math more engaging and relevant, and highlight the importance of teacher collaboration and active listening to enrich students' learning experiences.
To connect with Kevin:
X: @ kdykema
Instagram: dykemamath
LinkedIn: kevin-dykema
Finally, enjoy a new segment on the podcast, Dear CPM. This letter requesting advice from Misunderstood in Minneapolis in about how to connect with their students. Bri Ruiz, one of the Professional Learning Specialists, answers the question. And you'll enjoy the math joke of the podcast from Tom!
Send Joel and Misty a message!
The More Math for More People Podcast is produced by CPM Educational Program.
Learn more at CPM.org
X: @cpmmath
Facebook: CPMEducationalProgram
Email: cpmpodcast@cpm.org
Join Joel and Misty as they celebrate National Sugar Cookie Day. Learn about when sugar cookies first were made and revel in fun facts like Pillsbury's world record for most cookies iced in one hour.
Next, they continue their thought-provoking conversation with Kevin Dykema, president of NCTM, about promoting productive struggle in math classrooms. They talk about how teachers can balance encouraging perseverance with timely intervention to foster critical thinking and problem-solving skills. They'll also discuss moving beyond procedural knowledge to make math more engaging and relevant, and highlight the importance of teacher collaboration and active listening to enrich students' learning experiences.
To connect with Kevin:
X: @ kdykema
Instagram: dykemamath
LinkedIn: kevin-dykema
Finally, enjoy a new segment on the podcast, Dear CPM. This letter requesting advice from Misunderstood in Minneapolis in about how to connect with their students. Bri Ruiz, one of the Professional Learning Specialists, answers the question. And you'll enjoy the math joke of the podcast from Tom!
Send Joel and Misty a message!
The More Math for More People Podcast is produced by CPM Educational Program.
Learn more at CPM.org
X: @cpmmath
Facebook: CPMEducationalProgram
Email: cpmpodcast@cpm.org
You are listening to the More Math for More People podcast. An outreach of CPM educational program Boom. An outreach of CPM Educational Program Boom.
Speaker 2:Well, here we are. It's July 9th, what is the day today? Today is arguably one of the greatest holidays of all time National Sugar Cookie Day, sugar.
Speaker 1:Cookie Day yeah.
Speaker 2:You're going to argue that that's one of the greatest ones of all time.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean you have a lot of favorite national days.
Speaker 1:Well, every day is a favorite. I mean, that's really putting it up there.
Speaker 2:Well see, then, how can you argue that this one's it's July 9th, national Sugar Cookie Day.
Speaker 1:It's.
Speaker 2:July. I mean, you like Macaroon Day, you like?
Speaker 1:I do, I do like cookies.
Speaker 2:Slurpee and the Boba Tea.
Speaker 1:Day. Oh my gosh. I mean, you seem like there's so many foods. I think you like the food days.
Speaker 2:I do like the food days. Wait, maybe they.
Speaker 1:Yeah, when do you think the first or the birth of the cookie is?
Speaker 2:I'm sure that the cookie or the sugar cookie?
Speaker 1:The cookie Well hold on.
Speaker 2:These are all mythological things, but continue.
Speaker 1:So the birth of the sugar cookie. What do you think is the?
Speaker 2:date accredited to that creation 1542.
Speaker 1:1700.
Speaker 2:No, that's what it says. I don't. I disagree. I think people were making cookies before.
Speaker 1:Well, I bet they were too, because this says that they were settlers in Pennsylvania, and I don't think Pennsylvania was around as long as maybe the Germans who settled in Pennsylvania. They probably had sugar cookies before that time.
Speaker 2:But they didn't call them sugar cookies. Maybe they called them some other German word for sugar cookies.
Speaker 1:I'm not sure what they are, but it's fun. They're fun to decorate, they're easy to make Household staple.
Speaker 2:Think of sugar cookies Household. What Staple, staple Sugar cookies like the ones that you would like frost for Christmas.
Speaker 1:You can frost a sugar cookie, okay, or not only for Christmas, valentine's Day, easter maybe a birthday. Yeah, there's lots.
Speaker 2:Sugar cookies. Are they like the cutout ones? You roll them and you cut them out. You can do that Cookie cutters Do you roll them and you cut them out. You can do that Cookie cutters. Do you do them a different way?
Speaker 1:Pillsbury makes a sugar cookie and they don't cut them out. You know how it comes in a roll With a ball.
Speaker 2:Well, no, you slice them.
Speaker 1:Oh Like you slice them, but you slice them the thickness, and then they just stay that thickness, that's right, they're not like some cookies.
Speaker 2:Some cookies when you like chocolate chip cookies, for example, like you make them in a little ball and then they like melt out into their shape.
Speaker 1:That is the exact sound that they make the cookies.
Speaker 2:I think are not. Yes, If you're listening very closely to the oven. But sugar cookies aren't that kind they don't like, they just stay the same size.
Speaker 1:I think they just stay the same size yeah, okay. In 2015, pillsbury set a world record of the most cookies iced in one hour. Wow, what do you think? How many cookies by one?
Speaker 2:person, by many people. How many cookies, how many was it?
Speaker 1:It's Pillsbury. Well, what do you think? That's what I was going to ask.
Speaker 2:Oh, how many people, how many were. Well, how many cookies were iced In one hour, in one hour, in one hour, an hour and 60 minutes, I'm going to say 2,000.
Speaker 1:1,169.
Speaker 2:Wow, yeah, I think that was by more than one person. It might have even been by a machine.
Speaker 1:I hope not. I hope the world record didn't just To a machine. I'd like to see the person.
Speaker 2:We need to have the details of the world record.
Speaker 1:I know We'll have to look that up. More things to research, I know. I think we leave these sessions with more questions than answers yes, which creates the interest for the holiday, which is why, arguably, this is one of the best holidays.
Speaker 2:Oh, I think I've had more questions on other holidays, oh fair enough that, Just holidays. Oh, I think I've had more questions on other holidays. Oh, fair enough If that's. That's probably not the standard that we should live up to. Well, Joel, what are you going to do for? Is it National Sugar Cookie Day?
Speaker 1:National Sugar Cookie Day, I might host a cookie exchange. Yeah, I think that might be a good way to do it.
Speaker 2:Here, here, your friends are going to be surprised. They have to make cookies today.
Speaker 1:Yes, hello.
Speaker 2:I brought these cookies to exchange with you. Do you have any? Oh? Sorry I didn't plan ahead.
Speaker 1:I'll take these back then.
Speaker 2:Wow, I might try to find a gluten-free sugar cookie.
Speaker 1:That's a great idea.
Speaker 2:But it has to have icing on it.
Speaker 1:That's a great idea, but it has to have icing on it. Yeah, I think that, for sure. Absolutely Okay. Enjoy your icing and cookie.
Speaker 2:All right, well, enjoy your sugar cookie day. So last podcast we had part one of a conversation with Kevin Dykema, who is the current president of NCTM. So if you missed part one of our conversation with Kevin, please go to the June 25th episode 4.4 podcast and you can hear part one of our conversation. Our conversation with him was about productive struggle and we left off where he talks about how do teachers plan for it. So here you go what are some of the ways that you see that teachers can plan for and promote productive struggle? Because it is a fine thing, right, it's a fine line, because I know, for me it was always around. When do you save them? Right, like you want them to be in that place, because if they go into the where they can't persevere, then that undoes so much of the work you've done. So how do you, how can teachers, plan for that?
Speaker 3:Yeah, without a doubt. And I think when we're thinking about the rescuing, there's a difference between rescuing the student's thinking and rescuing the student's answers. And so often we rescue the student's answers, they were all about just strictly getting that, that correct answer. We need to be focusing on that, recognizing and rescuing their thinking, and I think some of that there's different work that I need to do before the lesson. I mean, I think as an early career teacher, I'd pick out a couple of good problems and I'm like all right, I'm ready to go, I know how to do the math. But now, if I'm truly interested in rescuing the thinking and not just rescuing the answers, once I picked out that problem that we're going to use, that task we're going to use, I need to stop and reflect. All right, how do I think my students are going to attack this problem? What are some correct strategies they might use and what are some false starts that they might do? And if they take this false start, what's going to be my reaction? I don't come up with great questions in the heat of the moment. When I'm working with a kid, if I haven't thought ahead of time, I'm more likely just to start rescuing their answer. But if I've done that work ahead of time and thought about, oh, what might they do and how might I respond, All of a sudden now I start to be rescuing the students' answers or, excuse me, rescuing their thinking, and that's really what we want for it.
Speaker 3:So I think when we're engaging in this notion of productive math struggle, there's some pre-work that needs to be done so that when we're in the supporting the students, we've done some of that mental work. It's also important that I find I need to jot myself notes at the end of that lesson. Then at the end of the day and say, hey, here's something I tried that didn't work. I would love to think I have a great memory, but realistically, 364 days from now, when I teach that same concept again for next year's group of students, I'll have forgotten how it went a whole year ago.
Speaker 3:And it's thinking about that. And I also think part of this notion of predictive struggle. We have to recognize the value in it. We have to recognize, as educators, the value of having our students engage, think deeply about the mathematics. If we think mathematics should just be taught as a series of procedures and have our students memorize that, there isn't a reason to have them start to see all those connections. We need to have them see all those connections between the topics and that'll lead to that more procedural fluency that is still very, very vital.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, and you talked about that pre-work for teachers. What about pre-work for students? Do you have any suggestions of how to work with students so that they are pre-working to understand the value?
Speaker 3:I think sometimes we wait too long to start doing some of that support. We wait until they're in that moment of panic and panic may be a little extreme, maybe they may be in the panic, but we wait until they get to that moment of frustration. What about if we proactively do some of frustration? What about if we proactively do some of that stuff and if we proactively, before we launch them into that task, say, hey, you know what we may make you think a little bit today. Why is taking a deep breath helpful? Why is counting to five helpful? Why is asking somebody else helpful and front load some of that stuff so that when they hit that point, they recognize that?
Speaker 3:I think it's also helpful if you have students who are passionate about sports. You relate to that and say, all right, we need to learn to play lacrosse. Were you perfect the very first time you tried doing whatever? Of course not. If you're on the basketball team and you're learning a new play, were you perfect the first time? Of course not. Was it hard work? Yes, but you see that it paid off. The same thing is going to happen in math. It's going to be hard work and that's all right when you get to that oh now I get it stage. It's there, it's stuck in your brain and it's going to result in learning that sticks and you're going to start to appreciate the mathematics. And for so many students to just find in those connections, whether it's with sports, whether it's with other things but helping them see that in society we say, all right, it's okay when we're learning non-academic things, it's okay to wrestle through and struggle to make sense of it. The same thing is true when we're talking mathematics, totally.
Speaker 2:I really liked that part of giving them some strategies or thinking about strategies to address that sort of emotional response right that we have sometimes when we don't understand something, we're frustrated. Right, get up, walk around a little bit, sharpen your pencil and sit down, not as an avoidance but as a give yourself a break piece. That I think is really important for young people to know that it's okay to have that sometimes an emotional response. I had a teacher one time and he talked about that I was working with and he said to his kids and these were calculus students he told them he says they had this problem to do, this big situation problem, and he said what are Mr Eero's three rules of solving word problems?
Speaker 2:And they were like read the problem, have an emotional response, go away, come back again, read the problem, right, you're going to read this and you're going to go, and you go away and come back. I think we, as educators, have to be comfortable with that.
Speaker 3:We have to allow our students that flexibility to move away for a moment and then come back. And I had to be comfortable with that student who has to go use the bathroom every single day during math block or during my class, recognizing they may or may not physically need to go use the restroom, but they need that three minutes where they can just refocus them. That kid that needs to sharpen their pencil every single day, twice a class period. It may not be that their pencil's actually there, but they're giving themselves that little bit of a break there. And I'd rather have a student who's doing that and recognizing that than that student who's sitting at their desk, pounding their head against the desk or becoming very agitated or acting out in other ways.
Speaker 3:It's important. We as adults do the same thing. Sometimes, when we're working on a task and we haven't fully made sense of it, we put it to the side for a little bit. We come back to it a couple minutes later. All of a sudden it makes so much more sense. Yeah, same thing happens with mathematics. We need to allow our students that flexibility to step away for a brief moment not for 30 minutes, not creating chaos, sure, let them walk away for a little bit and then come back to it. And it's amazing, I think, of the number of times as an, as a learner, as an adult, where you go to bed thinking about something and you wake up in the morning and you figure it out, whatever you're doing, without even consciously thinking about it all night long, and sometimes you know step-by-way just helps make sense of the math.
Speaker 2:Yeah, totally Giving them that affordance to be human.
Speaker 3:Very much so.
Speaker 2:So one of the questions that we wrote down that we were when we were thinking about is that Joel and I have been working with teachers since the pandemic, and we're hearing a lot of teachers and sites talk about how students don't want to do anything that they really really, and then and I get they're globalizing, they're extrapolating, but they get a lot of their students who don't want to do any work. They just want to be told what to do and have their perseverances really, really really low, even lower than in the past, and so we're wondering what are your thoughts on how teachers and schools can work with this issue that they're seeing?
Speaker 3:Yeah, and that's tough. I think sometimes we overgeneralize with things and we say all students, just as we say all teachers, all adults with that. So when we're saying all students have lost some of that ability, we don't really mean all students have lost that ability. But I would argue that for many students, for humans in general, if you don't understand what you're doing, you don't want to do it. If I don't understand what you're doing, you don't want to do it. If I don't understand a home repair, well, I don't understand very many home repair projects. But when I'm trying to do it, if I'm following a step-by-step to put something together, I dread doing it because I don't understand what I'm doing. But if I can get my dad to come down and drive the hour and put it together with me or for me, he doesn't use those step-by-step directions because he understands how the different pieces are going to be connected and he wants to do that. So I'd argue the same things can be true in mathematics. If we don't understand what we're doing, if we're not getting to that understanding stage, we don't want to do it.
Speaker 3:If it's just following a set of procedures, students don't see the relevance and the usefulness of doing that. There's apps on the phone that'll just spit out the answer. There's Siri, there's Chad GPT. There's so many things that students can do. So I think when we continue to teach math as just procedural knowledge, just as memorize this procedure and regurgitate it, let me give you a worksheet of 25 problems of the exact same type, just with different numbers. It Let me give you a worksheet of 25 problems of the exact same type, just with different numbers, and then let me give you a worksheet tomorrow with 40, because you need more practice with it. Students are going to increasingly say forget that. Do you not realize? I live in a technology-filled world? There's technology that'll do that.
Speaker 3:If math is strictly just calculations, we're doing our students a disservice. Mathematics needs to be developing that critical thinking, that problem solving, that sense making. And I would argue, when we think of mathematics that way, when we teach mathematics that way, our students are much more likely to want to be engaged, much more likely to be able to want to do that, when they fully recognize there's more than one way to do a problem. And if my thinking is different than your thinking, that is completely and totally fine. And when I learned to keep my mouth shut in my classroom it's a challenge at times and actually listen to the students thinking. The way that they do it are so different than the way I do things Because my brain just jumps straight to oh, there's got to be an equation for this. And for many students their brains don't jump straight to. Let me come up with an equation. They actually reason through and think about it and they gain a much greater appreciation, and I learn so much from my students when I listen to their thinking and reasoning.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it kind of sounds a little bit like it's not that the students don't want to do anything or that thinking about students don't want to do anything. It's like they want to do something and and we need to change that overall very much.
Speaker 3:That's a great way I think it's a great way to phrase it, joel. We have to find what it is that they want to to do and what's needed for that, what they see as relevant for for that, rather than just doing problem after problem after problem that big technology can easily replace. Yes, Right.
Speaker 2:Well, and I also hear a part of what you're saying too is valuing different perspectives right, and the approach to the mass, which kind of takes back to the pre-work that you were talking about too, is, if I look to sit at and work at a problem and do something, it may be hard for me to think of other ways to do it, because I've done it for a long time in particular ways, and so having other teachers to work with, to collaborate with and then to really ask students about their thinking, right.
Speaker 2:I liked what you talked about rescuing the thinking, because I think when I walk up to a student and I see that, oh, what's going on here? I'm not sure what they're doing I can go at one of two ways. I can say, hey, hey, you're doing this wrong, this is what you need to do. Or I can ask them about okay, so what were you thinking when you did this? What was happening here? And I can get at oh, I see you're thinking this, which is great, you're making connections, you really are. They're just not quite the connections that are going to get you to the place we want to go, and valuing that at the same time.
Speaker 3:Very much so, and one of the things that I constantly try to do and I'll emphasize the word try to do some days it works better than others. When the students have a misconception, when they make an error or whatever, I often try to figure out what's the problem they were really doing, and so often if I can tell the student oh, you did a great job, but here's the problem you were solving, we're solving this problem. And when they can see what problem they were really solving for so many they're like oh, now I know what I need to do to actually solve the problem that we're doing in class. Very rarely are students completely and totally clueless, but I think so often we think, oh, they either know how to do it or they don't know how to do it, and there's so many shades of gray in between there. And so often students may be 90% of the way with something understanding, but yet they're getting the problems consistently wrong with that.
Speaker 3:It's figuring out that last little bit. What's that? That's usually a relatively small little thing that we just need to tweak a little bit and all of a sudden they start to feel confident and they recognize that, and I do try as much as I can to help them see. All right, if the problem was this your solution strategy, your solution would have been perfect, but unfortunately you don't get to pick your own problem. Here's the problem we're actually working on in class today, or working out at this point in time.
Speaker 2:Well, and so often there I see that they're afraid to say what they think because so many times they've just been met with that's wrong, right. And they're still at an age where it's very hard to differentiate right, Because of their brain development. I was wrong versus I am wrong. I was wrong versus I am wrong. Okay, that's all we have time for today, so you'll need to tune in in two weeks, on July 23rd, for part three of our conversation with Kevin Dykema. See you today. This is our Letters to Dear CPM, Much like we used to write letters to Dear Abby or Ann Landers and they'd be published in the newspaper with their advice. These are letters from teachers asking for some advice or suggestions in their classroom. So they've written them to Dear CPM and we are having members of our professional learning team answer these questions. So maybe not every episode, maybe every other episode, we'll have one of these Dear CPM letters for you. This first one is going to be answered by Bree Ruiz, one of our professional learning specialists.
Speaker 4:Here you go, dear CPM. The good news is that I'm getting better and better at facilitating my CPM lessons, as the teacher notes describe, within my 47-minute class periods. Unfortunately, because I'm so focused on facilitating the lesson, I struggle to connect with my students, especially the introverts. Sometimes I feel like I'm treating my students like walking brains. How can I connect with my students in a short amount of time? How can I show how much I care for them as people and not just their math brains? Help Signed Misunderstood in Minneapolis. Dear Misunderstood in Minneapolis, first of all, I'm so glad to hear that you're starting to feel comfortable facilitating a CPM lesson within a class period. That's awesome to hear, and I'm glad you're finding those teacher notes helpful. I certainly rely on them a lot.
Speaker 4:Now about connecting with your students, I get where you're coming from. Class can feel like a juggling act and it can be overwhelming trying to build meaningful connections with students on top of everything else you're doing. So here are some suggestions that might be helpful. Start each day with a door question. A door question is a question that you ask students as they enter the room. It's all about getting to know them better beyond being a student in your math class. Some examples are who's your favorite musical artist? How many siblings do you have? What languages do you speak? What's a country you'd love to travel to? Door questions are great because they're a quick and small way to communicate to students that you want to learn more about who they are, their experiences and the important and interesting things to them, even by simply asking them how they're feeling today as they enter the room. You'll learn a lot about your students with very little time investment.
Speaker 4:I'd also encourage you to sprinkle in icebreaker activities that aren't necessarily math-related whenever possible. One of my favorites is the art of compromise, where each teammate shares three of their favorite things, like their favorite ice cream, movie genre or vacation spot. Then, as the team, they have to compromise on one of these things to share. Icebreakers are a lighthearted way to let students be themselves, have some fun and help students feel like they're a part of a community. I found that even my most introverted students warm up to icebreakers. You'll find a lot of great icebreaker suggestions under the team resource tab in your ebook. Lastly, try weaving in personal anecdotes or stories related to the lesson. It's a subtle way to show your students that you're not just about the math, but you're genuinely interested in them as individuals. Remember, building these connections takes time, so be consistent and patient with yourself. Keep trying different things. You can never show that you care too much. Hang in there and keep up the great work. Sincerely Bree.
Speaker 2:If you would like to send a letter to Dear CPM expressing one of the things that you're feeling challenged with, please send us an email to cpmpodcast at cpmorg, or drop us a line. Through the link in the description. You might see your letter on Dear CPM next time. Thanks. Now here's our math joke of the podcast. Hi, this is.
Speaker 3:Tom in Salem Oregon, and I've been thinking about parallel lines. Now here's our math joke of the podcast. Hi, this is Tom in St Oregon, and I've been thinking about parallel lines, parallel lines, man, they have. So much in common, and it's truly a shame.
Speaker 2:They're never going to meet. So that is all we have time for on this episode of the More Math for More People podcast. If you are interested in connecting with us on social media, find our links in the podcast description, and the music for the podcast was created by Julius H and can be found on pixabaycom. So thank you very much, julius. Join us in two weeks for the next episode of More Math for More People. What day will that be, joel?
Speaker 1:It'll be July 23rd, national Sprinkle Day, and not like a sprinkling of rain, but the sprinkles that you put on treats. From last episode we talked about National Sugar Cookie Day, so I wonder if, sprinkle Day, you could even add some sprinkles to your sugar cookies. I'm used to putting them on ice cream or rose and yogurt or something like that, but it'd be interesting to look at the colorful flecks of sugar that we call sprinkles and the history and how to celebrate. You can put them on cake, you can put them on. Can dog have sprinkles? I don't know. Somebody's asking here are sprinkles made of bugs. We're going to answer all of those things on National Sprinkle Day, july 23rd. See you then. Thank you.