More Math for More People
CPM Educational Program is a non-profit publisher of math textbooks for grades 6-12. As part of its mission, CPM provides a multitude of professional learning opportunities for math educators. The More Math for More People podcast is part of that outreach and mission. Published biweekly, the hosts, Joel Miller and Misty Nikula, discuss the CPM curriculum, trends in math education and share strategies to shift instructional practices to create a more inclusive and student-centered classroom. They also highlight upcoming CPM professional learning opportunities and have conversations with math educators about how they do what they do. We hope that you find the podcast informative, engaging and fun. Intro music credit: JuliusH from pixabay.com.
More Math for More People
Episode 4.4: Where Joel and Misty reminisce about the Beatles and begin a conversation with Kevin Dykema about Productive Math Struggle
It's Global Beatles Day! So first of all, Joel and Misty talk about the impact of the Beatles and their memories of them.
Then it's part 1 of a conversation with Kevin Dykema. Kevin is the current President of NCTM and a 25-year middle school teacher from Michigan. He's also the co-author of Productive Math Struggle: A 6-Point Action Plan for Fostering Perseverance. Part 1 includes how to get stakeholders on board with productive struggle in math class.
To connect with Kevin:
X: @ kdykema
Instagram: dykemamath
LinkedIn: kevin-dykema
Also, Morgan Normand, one of the copy editors for CPM chimes in about her recent experience as a "student" in Inspiring Connections!
And, of course, we have a math joke of the podcast for you!
Send Joel and Misty a message!
The More Math for More People Podcast is produced by CPM Educational Program.
Learn more at CPM.org
X: @cpmmath
Facebook: CPMEducationalProgram
Email: cpmpodcast@cpm.org
You are listening to the More Math for More People podcast, an outreach CPM educational program. Boom, an outreach CPM educational program.
Speaker 2:Boom. Okay, once again, here we are with our National Day of and it is June 25th it is. And what is the National Day today?
Speaker 1:Today is Global Beatles Day.
Speaker 2:Global Beatles Day, not International Beatles Day. That's interesting Global. Why is it global instead of international?
Speaker 1:My guess is the Beatles were kind of a big deal, so we're talking about the band the Beatles, not like the Bugs.
Speaker 2:They were kind of a big deal, yeah.
Speaker 1:You know they broke up in 1970, which is before I was born. So I can only go by the news articles and things like that, Like I never really lived it.
Speaker 2:It's all still history. But, my lived experience of the Beatles is pretty small and not memorable. Fair enough, fair enough.
Speaker 1:It could be in there somewhere though, right Like they absorbed.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean I'm sure I well. I listened to them a lot as a young person. I did too, of course they're in my parents' lived experience. Yes, yes, for sure.
Speaker 1:I did too.
Speaker 2:It's Global Beatles Day.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was just going to say have your parents like shared any stories about the Beatles that were meaningful? I don't know that my folks have.
Speaker 2:Other than that they liked the Beatles, no I. They had records, albums, right, and they had a record sleeve or an album sleeve, whatever for Rubber Soul, which is a Beatles album, but there was no record inside it. But they kept the sleeve still. I remember that Always like why do we have this thing? They didn't ever say why Interesting. We also had mamas and papas, a bunch of other things, but I remember that they had this rubber sole record sleeve. I'm sure they don't have it. Yeah, that didn't have an album in it.
Speaker 1:I bet there's a story that they just didn't want to share.
Speaker 2:I don't know.
Speaker 1:It's interesting, I probably Cracked against the wall.
Speaker 2:No, not with my parents. No, not likely. All right, not likely.
Speaker 1:I find it interesting. The day was founded in 2009. So that seems pretty recent to me, based on what we know about the Beatles and things like that.
Speaker 2:Interesting. Does it say why it was founded or any particular?
Speaker 1:It was founded to celebrate not only their music but their message of peace, and there was a moment in pop culture on June 25th 1967, where they were performing All you Need Is Love to 400 million people, and this was the first global live TV link, and so that's why Global Beatles Day is celebrated on this day.
Speaker 2:That makes sense.
Speaker 1:Have you ever seen the movie Across the Universe? No, highly recommend it. I have seen.
Speaker 2:Yellow Submarine.
Speaker 1:Yeah, across the Universe is a tribute to the Beatles. Definitely a go-to if I'm on an airplane, but I just recently watched it. Actually I was in a cabin, I had no internet. I had this dvd of um across the universe and the reason.
Speaker 1:I really like it as we celebrate not only the music but the. The message that the beatles had in their music and and that they talked about in their lives is really portrayed really well topics about war and love and growing up and the crazy times of those 60s yeah, there you go.
Speaker 2:What are you going to do to celebrate today?
Speaker 1:I'm listening to some tunes. How about you?
Speaker 2:That's pretty easy, but it's also not very easy because they're not on all the streaming services. Oh they aren't.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:No, it's hard actually to get Beatles stuff sometimes I think they're pretty controlled with their patents and things too. But yeah, I think that always sounds good.
Speaker 1:Didn't Michael Jackson actually buy rights to the Beatles songs? Paul McCartney said you should invest in music, and he said this to Michael Jackson and Michael Jackson said okay, I'm going to invest in your music, and so he. I think that Michael Jackson's group actually has a lot of control over what happens with Beatles music.
Speaker 2:Who knows this is, this is that is interesting. It could be true.
Speaker 1:I've heard that Now I need to do some research. You could do research on your Beatles day.
Speaker 2:Exactly All right. Well on your Beatles day. Exactly All right, well, happy Global Beatles Day, indeed. So this week on the podcast, we have the first part of our conversation with Kevin Dykema. Kevin Dykema is the current president of the National Council of Teachers of Mathematics, nctm, an organization with more than 30,000 members. He has also taught eighth grade mathematics for over 25 years at Matawan Middle School in Southwest Michigan.
Speaker 2:Kevin was actively involved with the Michigan Council of Teachers of Mathematics before serving a three-year term on the NCTM Board of Directors, and he has been a leader in several other organizations and a regional director, and very active in the Michigan area. For his service, he received MCTM's Regional Director's Award in 2007 for outstanding contributions and leadership in mathematics education, as well as the Organization's Service Award in 2014. We wanted to talk with Kevin about Productive Math Struggle. He is a co-author of Productive Math Struggle, published by Corwin, and he has written many articles about helping improve mathematics education for each and every student. Kevin was a really wonderful guest and we're really excited for you to hear our conversation with him. So here is part one. All right, so here we are with Kevin Dykema. So welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 4:We're so glad to have you here today. Thanks, Misty and Joel. I'm looking forward to our conversation this afternoon.
Speaker 2:Absolutely so. I want to start off with a little bit of a of a share. So when we I know I think you're doing a keynote at a conference that Joel's going to- this week In Colorado this week. In Colorado. Yeah this up and everything. And then when we were doing our research Joel and I are a little out of the loop sometimes we realized that you're the president of NCTM and so we were all like, oh, my goodness gracious, we'll have the president of NCTM on our podcast and we're really excited about that.
Speaker 4:I'm excited to be here and I'm looking forward to seeing you, joel, in a couple of days in sunny Denver where it looks like it's going to be very, very warm.
Speaker 2:It does look like it's going to be warm Summertime, so we're just going to start off with the question of what's it like to be the president of NCTM.
Speaker 4:It's a wonderful experience and every day is something completely and totally new. It's afforded me opportunities to interact with people I would have never interacted with on any other given basis. It provides the opportunity to think about so many different things in mathematics education things that, as a classroom teacher, I just never thought about as a middle school teacher, and thinking anywhere from what do we need to do in early childhood mathematics all the way through high school mathematics and it's been a wonderful experience and so many wonderful people who are willing to share their expertise with me when I reach out to them.
Speaker 1:That's so great For our work at CPM we've been using as a resource. You co-authored a book Productive Struggle in Maths and we've been using that as a resource in a lot of our work that we're doing with professional learning. Just what do you think would be important things that teachers, administrators, parents, students all the stakeholders need to know about productive struggle in math?
Speaker 4:Sometimes, when I'm leading some work around productive math struggle, I like to think about outside of the math world. Because as soon as you start talking about mathematics, for so many of our students caregivers, they have negative experiences with math. And as soon as you start talking math right off for so many of our students caregivers, they have negative experiences with math. And as soon as you start talking math right off the bat, they have tuned you out. So I often like to think about sometimes I talk about learning to ride a bike and I point out there's struggle involved with learning to ride a bike and yet we value that struggle and we recognize it's through that struggle that you actually learn how to ride a bike. Same idea when you're learning a new song you learn to play a new instrument. We recognize there's going to be some of those false starts. We're going to recognize it's not always going to be easy, but yet historically in math we reverted to. Let me tell you exactly what to do. I'll try to remove all of that and that struggle for you. And if it's good enough for all of the other areas of which we're learning in, it is definitely good enough in mathematics.
Speaker 4:And I also think there's this misconception that when we're talking about productive math struggle, the teachers just say kids are going to figure everything out on their own, and we know that simply is not the reality. There is still a time and a place for the teacher and there's still a spot to be able to provide some of that additional stuff. But we need to get our students thinking about mathematics. We need to get them starting to see those connections between the different topics and really developing that nice solid understanding. And that's really what productive math store goes all about getting them to that nice understanding stage, helping them see those connections between different topics yeah, how do you?
Speaker 1:how do you see that? So that sounds like that relationship between teacher and student. I'm also curious how do you think administrators can help, parents can help, that sort of thing.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I think one of the worst things that often happens when we're talking about our students' parents and caregivers at least I have many of my students' parents at the beginning of the year say, oh, I hated math, I'm not good at math. But then when you start doing things that look different than what they experience, sometimes there's pushback like, oh, wait a minute, I don't want to, I don't know how to do this. And that's okay for parents to recognize they don't know how to do it. And I have to point out to caregivers, to administrators If what we have done for however many years, is not working, why do we want to keep doing that same thing over and over and over again?
Speaker 4:So, yes, parents, the experiences that your child are having are going to look different than the experiences you have, but you didn't like your experience. You said it wasn't successful for you. Be willing to adapt, be willing to have your child have different experiences than what you have and and be open to that and try not to to bash that for administrators. It's recognizing, hey, the the nice, silent math classroom that you may have in your mind because that's what you had when you were a student, however many years ago. That should not be the norm today, when we're getting our students to do that. So the math classroom should look different than the math classroom of 20 years ago 30 years ago, and that's all right. We're looking to meet the students' needs.
Speaker 1:Definitely mind shifts.
Speaker 2:I think that's one of the things that's so interesting to me is it always feels like there's this different compared to reading or writing or other history, this different attitude about math. That one, if you're struggling then there's a problem. And two, if, as a parent, if my student is struggling and I can't help them, then that is also a problem. And I wonder if you have any thoughts around. Why is math different than other subject areas, at least the way I think of them? My kid came home and they're struggling with history and I don't know everything about World War II. Like I'm not going to feel as lacking as a parent.
Speaker 4:Yeah, that's a great question and I think some of that. There's a difference sometimes, I think, between parents when you're parenting an elementary child and a secondary child. I've taught 8th grade math for over 25 years. I have to say one of the beautiful things about teaching 8th grade math is for so many of the parents they say I can't help you child, go ask your teacher. But when you think about for most of the elementary parents don't want to say I can't help you.
Speaker 3:Go ask your teacher.
Speaker 4:But when we think about for most of the elementary parents don't want to say I can't help you, go ask your teacher. Instead they say, all right, hey, the way you're doing at school isn't the right way. Let me just tell you the steps to memorize. But so many of our students are like why do I have to memorize that? I'm going to walk around with a calculator at all times?
Speaker 4:We don't call it a calculator, we call it a cell phone but the student has a calculator there. Or a student can say hey, siri, what's the formula for the area of a parallelogram or whatever, and Siri will correctly spit it out. And we've got to recognize and continue just to acknowledge that the math of 20 years ago, of 10 years ago, should look different than the math of today, should look different than the math of today If we're truly interested in helping our students see the relevance and the usefulness of mathematics. Or students are just going to continually say math is not for me, I'm going to exit it as quickly as I possibly can. And that makes it challenging for so many of our caregivers to think about things differently. And math is then that different subject. And in society, the quickest way to lose friends is to say I can't read. But if you say I can't do math.
Speaker 4:That's a quick way to gain friends. That people all of a sudden just jump on that bandwagon and we've got to look at what have we done and how can we continue to change to better meet the needs of all of our students and help everybody recognize they are capable of learning mathematics?
Speaker 2:Yeah, Well, I was going to say the quickest way to lose friends is to tell them you work for a math textbook publisher, Because then you're one of those people. The quickest way to yeah.
Speaker 4:It's like when I fly into a new city and I take a taxi to the hotel and they ask what I do and on those rare moments that I say, hey, I'm the president of the world's largest organization focused on K-12 math. I know what's going to happen next. I know it's going to be a therapy session and they won't lie. There are times I pick up my cell phone and have a great conversation with my wife and she's not on the other end of it, I just talk to myself, because I don't want to have to deal with the taxi driver's therapy needs at that point in time.
Speaker 4:Totally.
Speaker 2:Totally oh man, totally oh man. So what are some of the ways that you see that teachers can plan and plan for and promote productive struggle? Because it is a fine thing, right, it's a fine line, because I know, for me it was always around. When do you save them? Right, like you want them to be in that place, because if they go into the, where they can't persevere, then that undoes so much of the work you've done.
Speaker 4:So how do you, how can teachers plan for that? Yeah, without a doubt. And I think, when you're thinking about the rescuing, there's a difference between rescuing the student's thinking and rescuing the student's answers.
Speaker 2:Well, that is part one of our conversation with Kevin Dykema. Please tune in in a couple weeks for the next episode of More Math, more People, and you'll hear part two of our conversation with Kevin Dykema. Recently we had a special, inspiring connections internal course for cpm employees. We collaboratively completed several lessons in the prelude and in chapter three together as a virtual class, and so there were a lot of people who came and participated in the course who were not in the professional learning department. One of them was Morgan Normand, who is one of our copy editors, and this is what she had to share about that experience. We thought you might enjoy it.
Speaker 5:Recently, along with many other CPM team members, I have had the chance to experience inspiring connections from a student lens. Naturally, this has led me to reflect on what I was like back when I was in middle school. I felt I was pretty smart and I was very proud of it. I was also intensely shy, and even when I did put myself out there, I felt I was pretty smart and I was very proud of it. I was also intensely shy, and even when I did put myself out there, I felt out of place. I think I would have benefited a lot from being in a CPM classroom which emphasizes helping students learn how to share ideas with each other. I am also quite certain that I would have been mad about it, at least in the beginning. I can hear myself saying what do you mean? I have to talk to people my own age. I have to explain my thoughts in a way that's intelligible to others the indignity of it all. I know what I mean. Why is that not enough? I don't think I need to explain to teachers the value of communication skills. Teachers are intimately familiar with the fact that knowing something and knowing how to explain it are separate things. Both are fundamental to the job. Teachers spend their entire careers refining their communication skills, connecting with a new group of students every year, identifying and bridging gaps in students' understandings and updating their pedagogy to reflect the latest research and their own experiences. Despite all this, classes rarely allotted time for teaching communication skills.
Speaker 5:Back when I was a student. In fact, it was almost as though nobody wanted to admit that communication is a skill set, something you have to learn rather than be born with an innate understanding of all its nuances. Many a time I was put in a group with my classmates and expected to already know how to have a productive discussion. Dear readers, I did not. When am I supposed to speak? What is my place to say? How do I disagree with someone without being rude? I eventually realized that many of my peers were just as lost as I was. This was comforting, but not helpful. My experiences in a CPM classroom now have been different. Conversations are focused, discussions are meaningful, it feels like we have freedom to explore, but that we aren't completely on our own, so to speak. Now, in this situation, my fellow students have been adults. I will acknowledge that confounding variable, though, age alone has not been enough to save me from awkward silences in other situations. That aside, I think I see how the class was designed to set us up for success. These are my notices and wonderings of what we've done and why it may have been helpful.
Speaker 5:Team roles give structure to group dynamics. Questions about who is responsible for what are answered before the conversation even begins. Who keeps track of materials? The organizer? Who should be making sure that everyone is involved in the discussion? The coordinator? Perhaps this clear, impartial assignment of responsibilities alleviates worries about fairness or seeming bossy when trying to stay on task. I know that was the case for me.
Speaker 5:Activities are often structured to avoid imbalances. Rather than one student not contributing or one student doing the majority of the work, all students must work together. For example, when teams work at a VNPS, the team member with the marker writes their teammates' ideas, not their own, and the marker is passed around every few minutes. Sentence frames model ways to share ideas. They provide clear, concise, appropriate phrasing so that team members can communicate effectively. Expectations for conduct are explicitly communicated. These expectations guide group activities in the classroom, where an adult can mediate or facilitate forward momentum when necessary. Visibly random teams create opportunities. Working with new teammates every day lets students connect with different classmates and hear different perspectives. Individual thinking time reduces pressure. This time is valuable for students who need a moment to collect their thoughts or who like to rehearse what they want to say.
Speaker 5:I think one of the reasons I liked math class as a kid was that it so rarely took me out of my comfort zone. I liked that all the work was solitary, that I was expected to quietly take notes and only volunteer to speak to the class. If I knew the answer, I most likely would not have been thrilled to find myself in a classroom designed to take me out of that comfort zone. However, I am also positive that I would have come around to it. Cpm curricula don't just push students out of their comfort zones. They provide tools and supports that actually help them build the skills they need to overcome challenges. In some ways, the course felt tailor-made for my childhood self's developmental needs. It makes me happy to think about how today's students must have grown during the school year, mathematically and beyond here's your math joke of the podcast hi, this is pam chavis and I'm from Colorado Springs, colorado.
Speaker 3:And here's my favorite math joke why did the obtuse angle go to the beep? Because it was over 90 degrees. Hope you enjoy.
Speaker 2:So that is all we have time for on this episode of the More Math for More People podcast. If you are interested in connecting with us on social media, find our links in the podcast description, and the music for the podcast was created by Julius H and can be found on pixabaycom. So thank you very much.
Speaker 3:Julius.
Speaker 2:Join us in two weeks for the next episode of More Math for More People. What day will that be, Joel?
Speaker 1:It'll be National Sugar Cookie Day on July 9th, arguably probably one of the greatest holidays of all time, but we just get to celebrate this delicious, guiltless, craving treat that was invented a long, long time ago. Can't wait to get in the history of this one. I can remember my mom had bought me a cookbook it was the Mickey Mouse cookbook and I remember my first gum trying to make sugar cookies and it did not work out so well. I thought I'd do it the size of a pan, I thought that I would make it green some green food coloring and I was with my aunt and my aunt was helping me and my mom came home and I was so excited to share my sugar cookies and I think they were harder than snow, so that did not work out so well, but I'm happy that I get to celebrate the day and talk about the history of the National District of Miami. Thank you.